Manny Pacquiao: Innocent Suspicion

By "Old Yank" Schneider on July 13, 2011
Manny Pacquiao: Innocent Suspicion
The current state of affairs with anti-doping in boxing has created a "truth vacuum”

Not a single shred of hard evidence exists that proves Manny Pacquiao is involved in illegal performance enhancing…

Suspicion is a harsh word; even harsher when you are the subject of it; even maddening if you are in a position of being unable to prove the negative. Manny Pacquiao is stuck in it. And this is a place that boxing has created for him. There is a strong element of innocence here as well. However this is not about Pacquiao’s potential, if not likely innocence; it is about the innocence of the common boxing fan that has been drawn to a place of suspicion.

So we need a definition or modification of suspicion that removes the hard-edge of a presumption of guilt. After all, a “prime suspect” is afforded the presumption of innocence in the eyes of the court, but he is afforded no such privilege in the eyes of those who have attached the label, and certainly he is afforded no presumption of innocence in the court of public opinion—where verdicts are supported with intensity and rendered quickly.

In the circumstances surrounding Manny Pacquiao, we could benefit from a sense of “innocent suspicion”: this is the unsatisfying place where human nature drifts when caught between convinced of guilt and convinced of innocence—the place between condemnation and absolution. This is the place where many fair-minded fans have arrived with accusations of performance enhancing leveled at Manny Pacquiao: Innocent Suspicion.

What is the source of this innocent suspicion? Who is to blame for allowing Pacquiao, an otherwise good and decent man, father, husband, and congressman, to become shrouded under this cloud of innocent suspicion? It is far too easy to take, well, the easy way out and blame Floyd Mayweather Jr. We really know better.

The current state of affairs with anti-doping in boxing has created a “truth vacuum”—a place where no real truth can be asserted and therefore suspicion rushes in to fill the vacuum.

Let’s be crystal clear here; virtually every major sanctioning body has explicit rules that ban the use of enhancing substances (PEDS, HGH, steroids, etc.) and artificial enhancing procedures (blood doping for example). But the enforcement of these anti-doping rules is left to each individual boxing commission. Sanctioning bodies continue to sanction bouts while commissions fail to enforce anti-doping rules. Imagine the state of boxing if it failed to enforce glove-loading. To add insult to injury, managers and promoters engage in willful blindness fearing one of their golden geese might actually lay a steroid-laced egg. So amongst the crystal and egg shells is an antiquated system of a single, event-day urine test posing as a sorry excuse for enforcement—and it’s the practice of virtually every boxing commission on the planet. How is a fan supposed to rise above suspicion when enforcement protocol is such an obvious joke?

The sports fan of today is inundated with steroid scandal layered on steroid scandal in virtually every pro sport. Most serious pro sports actually have made attempts at bringing anti-doping testing protocols out of the dark ages and into the light of something resembling state-of-the-art. The cycling circuit uses something akin to Olympic sports-style testing—random urine and blood testing and the creation of blood passports to detect anomalies associated with non-steroidal artificial enhancing techniques. The major US sports of basketball, football and baseball have all instituted random testing (albeit much less rigorous than testing protocols in cycling). And even with testing getting more and more sophisticated, the scandals still keep coming with regularity. It should be obvious to every fan that the pressure to perform has become so intense that every edge is sought—even the illegal edge. With this as a backdrop, boxing retains an essentially useless method of anti-doping enforcement. With illegal enhancing at epidemic proportions in all of professional sports, what is the boxing fan to believe about his sport?

Under the stringent testing protocols used in cycling we had a hero in Lance Armstrong. He was our proof that good and decent competitors can compete cleanly—or so we thought. This past May, the iconic TV news series “60 Minutes” ran a scathing story that leveled stunning allegations of cheating against Armstrong. Backing up their story was evidence that former Armstrong teammates provided testimony to a grand jury that they personally witnessed Armstrong using banned substances or provided them to him. When heroes like this fall, what is a boxing fan to believe about their heroes when the sport has thus far refused to exit the dark ages of useless event-day urine testing? Boxers have greater integrity?

As we close in from the general to the more specific, what has the boxing fan seen associated with Manny Pacquiao’s organization? Trevor Graham was once on the training team as a sports consultant for Team Pacquiao. Graham is the character banned from Olympic sports for his involvement in steroid cheating scandals. Although Alex Ariza (a nutrition and conditioning consultant to Team Pacquiao) has vehemently denied any connection to BALCO or any major players in the BALCO scandal, reports have persisted, fairly or not, that Ariza has been associated with more than “supplements and proteins.” To add insult to injury, Alex Ariza has delivered no fewer than three different stories explaining how Manny Pacquiao got so big so fast—in 2009 it centered around undisclosed supplements; in 2010 the story was about an undisclosed 5,000 calorie a day diet; in 2011 we’ve gotten a story that Pacquiao’s rapid size gain was due to protein shakes Ariza specially devised for Pacquiao. Even the famed Manny Pacquiao trainer Freddie Roach has now admitted that he was the trainer for two fighters when they were engaged in using illegal performance enhancing drugs: Justin Fortune and James Toney. A boxing team with obvious and suspected and, in some cases, admitted connections to steroid scandals and the mind is not permitted to wander and wonder? How does a fair-minded fan avoid innocent suspicion?

Each and every fair-minded fan that carries with them innocent suspicion about Manny Pacquiao would likely be able to add to what contributes to their innocent suspicion.

Here is the bottom line: Not a single shred of hard evidence exists that proves Manny Pacquiao is involved in illegal performance enhancing! I personally believe he’s clean. But I must admit I’m a bit stuck in a place of innocent suspicion.

But here is all that matters: The failures of sanctioning bodies, commissions, the ABC, managers, promoters and fighters to come together and fix the fundamental reasons for suspicions flying high has laid a solid foundation for “innocent suspicion” in the minds of many fair-minded fans. Boxing is decades behind the times and perhaps innocent fighters will have asterisks next to their accomplishments from now on because of the failures of the sport to respond to an obvious challenge. Indeed it is a complex task to bring such a disparate group of conflicting interests together, but the time is now.

In a ray of hope, only weeks ago the State of Nevada legislature passed a bill that would allow fees to be added to ticket prices to pay for the added cost of more sophisticated anti-doping protocols. It’s a start.

Indeed I suffer from innocent suspicion—but I know where blame belongs; not on Mayweather, not on Pacquiao, but squarely on the major players in the administration of boxing—sanctioning bodies, commissions, the ABC, promoters and managers. This is the source. So I wish Manny Pacquiao nothing but the best and encourage him to get on board in pressuring these administrative players to clean up the sport he and we fans love. I want my innocent suspicion to justly gravitate to absolution. How about you?

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  1. boxmeister 03:29pm, 10/01/2012

    Cowardice and envy created this suspicion.  Floyd Mayweather Jr envies those that are better than him, those that can defeat him, those that he admires and hates at the same time, those that is a threat to his security and to those who do not retaliate who make him look stupid.  That one Asian Phenom he cannot accept that is better than him who accomplished what no boxer had accomplished…or better yet a “midget” who literally obliterates bigger men inside the ring…If Pacquiao is juicing, he is the smartest person in the sport never to have been caught.  And that is the thing that Floyd is bothered most.  His blind fans knew these things all along but remained in constant agreement without concrete evidence.  That is totally unjust and humiliating to Pacquiao.  But no…he does not retaliate from his mouth..the lawsuit will take care of it.

  2. "Old Yank" Schneider 03:10am, 07/18/2011

    Toughguy—Are you exclusively referring to the character of those accusing Pacquiao?  Or does your “character theory” apply to Marion Jones, and Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds and all the others as well?  Perhaps some ill will towards a particular accuser has caused you to close the case too early.

  3. Toughguy 12:45am, 07/18/2011

    People here could very well decide if the PED allegation is real or imaginary by just referring to the character of the accusers. Case closed.

  4. "Old Yank" Schneider 04:39am, 07/17/2011

    Paul—Fair statement.

  5. "Old Yank" Schneider 04:39am, 07/17/2011

    The Thresher—You made some very strong comments—making fans who hold “innocent suspicion” out to be fans of Joe McCarthy.  I asked a question of you that was a serious question: “Do you believe congressional hearings on doping in sports is the moral equivalent of the McCarthy hearings?”  It’s a fair question to ask of a man who has taken such a strong stand.  I asked it you even acknowledge that doping is an issue in sports and boxing.  It’s a fair question to ask of a man who believes fans who are suspicious are the moral equivalent of Joe McCarthy.  My bet is that you are indeed a big Pacquiao fan—and we can all remember the day when Bonds, and Canseco and Sosa and McGwire and Rashard Lewis and O.J. Mayo and Lance Armstrong were all supported with rabid zeal by their loyal fans.  This does NOT mean that Pacquiao will disappoint his fans as well.  It does mean that fans (and observers of fans) have seen much that build a foundation to “innocent suspicion”.  We disagree—I RESPECT THAT.  I STRONGLY believe that pro sports, the administration of boxing, cheats that have been caught and more, combine to provide a foundation for “innocent suspicion”.  Can it be unfair?  OF COURSE IT CAN.  But, in my opinion,  denying the existence of innocent suspicion is not in the ballpark of truth.

  6. "Old Yank" Schneider 04:24am, 07/17/2011

    The Thresher—I’ve repeated a theme with you—I RESPECT your point of view!  But the world operates with multiple views; many worthy of respect.  The entire point of this article is about how out of control pro sports (and boxing now too), have become with doping.  And when things get this far out of control it opens a door for INNOCENT sportsmen to become the subject of “innocent suspicion”.  The article does not paint Pacquiao as guilty of artificial enhancing—it paints a picture of rampant abuse in sports (and boxing), that lead a fan to a place of NOT KNOWING THE TRUTH.  My intent is not to disrespect the view of a fan who honors the tradition of innocent until proven guilty or to dishonor the notions of fan loyalty.  Neither you nor I are in need of each others approval.  I write from the perspective of a passionate fan willing to support my passions—and having a dialogue with another fan who supports his passions is one of the greatest places for me to live.  PEACE.

  7. Paul 07:11pm, 07/16/2011

    “is there any real justification to dismiss the best available drug test request?” I don’t think so. I have my suspicions of Manny which can be easily removed with a negative Olympic style drug test close to a fight.

  8. The Thresher 06:08pm, 07/16/2011

    “Old Yank” Schneider, I’m sorry if you think I am someone else or if you think I am piucking on you, but your subject matter is what driives my comments. I am a strong Manny fan and will defend his honor unless and untll I have reason to do otherwise. You have not provided that reason.

    Give me another subject with which I can resonate on a positve level and I’ll give you your props.

  9. The Thresher 05:26pm, 07/16/2011

    If you are using BoxingScene’s poll, you are not doing yourself any good. Trust me on that.

    Why not do your own poll. Get a fair sampling and then do your math and let’s see what you come up with.

    “Do you think it is “POSSIBLE” that Manny Pacquiao has used banned substances in his career?” is like asking do you think it’s possible that anyone used banned substance. Just does not make any sense.

  10. "Old Yank" Schneider 11:50am, 07/16/2011

    Have a nice day Ted!

  11. del g 08:13am, 07/16/2011

    If the mayweathers were never born, or i will put it better IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERNNT WEIGHTCLASS? This would be a non issue. I wonder why Floyd??

  12. The Thresher 06:44am, 07/16/2011

    This guy is hopeless. I mean how can you argue with someone who is right all the time—-and he even admit to being right all the time. I’m done here.

  13. "Old Yank" Schneider 04:41am, 07/16/2011

    And other polls indeed show higher suspicion.  BoxingScene’s poll shows 27% “think Manny Pacquiao may be taking performance enhancers.”  And it is NOT Manny’s fault.

  14. "Old Yank" Schneider 04:35am, 07/16/2011

    Iron Beach—No, I’m in the majority who believe Pacquiao is clean.  And 20% of fans thinking Manny is dirty is not immaterial.  What if the poll question is asked differently?  What if the question reads, “Do you think it is “POSSIBLE” that Manny Pacquiao has used banned substances in his career?  What do you think the poll results would be?  And AGAIN, this is not about Pacquiaio.  Ask the “is it possible” question about ANY pro athlete and the response tells us all we need to know about deep and pervasive the doubts are in the minds of fans regarding pro athletes.

  15. Iron Beach 04:27am, 07/16/2011

    Well Yank I did just that, in fact one of the sites had a poll…69.5% said NO. 20.7% said Yes and 9.8% said IDK. You’re in the great minority.

  16. "Old Yank" Schneider 04:27am, 07/16/2011

    Iron Beach—I got your point and it is well made!

  17. "Old Yank" Schneider 04:26am, 07/16/2011

    Iron Beach—My article was not about Manny’s guilt or innocence.  It was a condemnation of the administration of boxing that has allowed this issue to get so out of hand.  And the ISSUE is not Pacquiao or Mayweather.  The issue is the REALITY that fans are losing any sense that integrity remains in pro sports due to how exposed fans have become to doping scandals.  Back in “the day”, when pro sportsmen signed contracts to “play” for what was once little more than the poverty level, we BELIEVED that they were playing for the love of the sport—a Father Knows Best, Leave it to Beaver innocence existed.  With $100 million on the line in some cases for an INDIVIDUAL athlete, fans have become jaded.  The pressure to perform when it is no longer simply a matter of the love of a game, is huge.  And fair-minded fans ask themselves basic questions like, “What would I be willing to do for $100 million?”  And when these questions are asked of ourselves, in the deep recesses of our humanity we get a glimpse of our dark side.  And when we face the truth of our dark side, we sense that we cannot ask athletes with millions on the line to be more human than ourselves.  PEACE!

  18. Iron Beach 04:15am, 07/16/2011

    Yank, I would invite you to read the Wolak-Rodriguez article on this very site, especially pay attention to the remarks about putting on club shows. Just the VERY thing I’ve been telling you.

  19. "Old Yank" Schneider 04:14am, 07/16/2011

    Iron Beach—RE: Your view that, “this suspicion exists in the minds of very few people…”  Try a Google on “suspicion manny pacquiao” and learn how “few” the count is.  As I have stated countless times, I personally find the total lack of any hard evidence enough for me to “believe” (not KNOW), that Manny is clean.  But too much water has been allowed to flow over the damn in all of pro sports (and boxing in particular for its DECADES of ignoring a responsibility to exit the dark ages of USELESS event-day urine testing) for me to be so damn sure that I refuse fans an entitlement to “innocent suspicion”.

  20. Iron Beach 04:01am, 07/16/2011

    And one more thing, I would venture a guess that I have been in more different boxing gyms in the last year than most if not all of you and spoken to dozens of fighters, trainers, railbirds, etc and only one fighter has cast suspicion on Manny. This guy was shouted down and laughed at, won’t mention his name (N GW C) this suspicion exists in the minds of very few people, sometimes I wonder if it isn’t per$onal in some way. Peace!!

  21. "Old Yank" Schneider 02:34am, 07/16/2011

    My foundational assumption?  Pro sports are so shrouded in doping controversy followed by doping controversy, that it leaves many FAIR-MINDED fans in a place of “innocent suspicion”—they don’t know what to believe any more.  I will further state that in my opinion any one unable to acknowledge the truth in this is being unreasonable and intolerant.  And if this simple truth is argued against to the point of name-calling and insistence that no one is entitled to feel this way, perhaps it crosses the line to belligerence.

  22. "Old Yank" Schneider 02:21am, 07/16/2011

    I get the objection to a “one rotten apple” mentality.  I also get the politician jokes that ask, “Hoe can you tell when a politician is lying?”  Does the stereotype of a used car salesman really fit a used car salesman?  “What do we call 100,000 attorneys standing at the bottom of the ocean?  ANSWER: A good start!”  What do we call a new record in sports?  ANSWER: A juice commercial.  In my opinion, this is the state of public opinion today.  Is the stereotype unfair?  I guess it is a matter of opinion and where ones foundational assumptions come from.

  23. "Old Yank" Schneider 02:15am, 07/16/2011

    The Thresher—I’m curious.  Do you feel that all the congressional hearings on illegal enhancing in professional sports have been essentially the same as the hearings Joseph McCarthy did?  Do you even acknowledge that a doping issue exists?  I’m just trying to grasp your bottom line on where your foundational assumptions are on this issue.

  24. boxmeister 02:12am, 07/16/2011

    Some people just don’t really get it.  No matter how you rationalize the suspicion, the more it gets complicated.  Plain and simple:  The boxer who keeps insisting he is out to clean out the sport and have a level playing field by randomly testing Pacquiao knows that out of the 41 fights he had,this collision with Pacquiao will be the end of his money making career in PPV sales.  Fear creates confusion and by throwing a monkey wrench inside the gears of boxing, he created the mayhem.

  25. "Old Yank" Schneider 02:09am, 07/16/2011

    del g—I too believe that Pacquiao will eventually summit to USADA-style testing for a bout with Mayweather and beat him.  And, I agree, some will STILL voice their skepticism if not down right hate.  However, for those fair-minded fans stuck in a place of “innocent suspicion”, by-and-large the vast, vast majority of them will be moved to a place of absolution for Pacquiao—being satisfied that he’s clean.

  26. "Old Yank" Schneider 06:40pm, 07/15/2011

    Again, I respect your views.  I;m not the leader of the band.  You can suggest all the courses in standard deviation that you wish, the COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION does not operate on that level.  The public is skeptical of all athletic records in this modern era of steroid scandal on top of steroid level.  You want to shoot the messenger.  Pejoratives leveled at me will not alter reality.  I’m jest telling the truth!’

  27. del g 12:19pm, 07/15/2011

    I’m gonna keep this short, coz I’ve been wiped twice after writing good points for 10-15 mins. Manny Pacquaio will take the test, he will pass, beat floyd by tko within 9 rounds, YES 9 ROUNDS, and still be accused of using something. Coz SNR started this. That is all…apart from America loves a conspiracy. be safe. Del

  28. The Thresher 12:09pm, 07/15/2011

    And some people raised eyebrows over what Senator Joe McCarthy did in the ‘50s when he too labeled people commies. I believe the word was “tagged” back then. RFK tried to do it with Hoffa and was told to ram it. In effect, what you are trying to do is smear, label, and tag athletes as being a part of a so-called PED/JUICING epidemic based on some small sampling of actual cases. I suggest you take a course in statistics where you can explore extrapolations and standard deviations. You have tried to come off as a reformist or crusader here when in reality you have attempted to smear arguably the greatest fighter of the past several decades. And oh by the way, asterisks mean nothing unless they are generated by facts—something you conveniently neglect to set forth.

    Now then, when you say “are you unaware that a former pitcher for the Yankees already publicly accused Jeter of using steroids,” you once again use the technique of accusation equals fact equals guilt. Unless Jeter has been charged with and found guilty of using, he should not be implicated in any way. I also find it curious that you would cite Jeter as an example during the week in which he is enjoying some of his greatest moments. Man, you seem bent on destruction and it’s starting to come off as arrogance and even hate..

  29. "Old Yank" Schneider 08:39am, 07/15/2011

    The Thresher—I RESPECT your views of fair play.  However, are you unaware that a former pitcher for the Yankees already publicly accused Jeter of using steroids?  What do you want from me?  To stick my head in the sand and pretend that this all should go away?  Baseball and steroids go together like America and apple pie—or have you been asleep for the past tow decades?  A Jeter team mate went public.  Combine the near epidemic that’s been exposed over the past two decades with team-mate accusations and we arrive at “innocent suspicion” for Jeter.  Look, you are entitled to whatever “look the other way” system you feel is necessary to be “fair” in your world.  I respect that and can accept it.  But don’t demand of the rest of the world that we play along.  Did you actually suggest that not a single baseball fan is entitled to be suspicious of Jeter?  Why should your singular views of what constitutes “fair play” rule the world.  You are entitled to your approach and so is everyone else.  The conclusion is an undeniable truth:  some fans have raised an eyebrow over Jeter’s accomplishments.

  30. The Thresher 08:08am, 07/15/2011

    “t is impossible to expect no fan to raise an eyebrow.” Says who? Now you imply (by reference to his name in the context of this smear article) that Jeter might be suspect. Man, you should write for Rupert Murdoch.

  31. "Old Yank" Schneider 07:22am, 07/15/2011

    “...fires long extinguished by a dampening of the code.”

  32. "Old Yank" Schneider 07:21am, 07/15/2011

    Derek Jeter gained admission to a very exclusive fraternity.  But in a day and age were enhancing is often viewed as epidemic in pro sports, it is impossible to expect no fan to raise an eyebrow.  Pro sports has brought this on themselves, and boxing is not immune.  In “days of old”, pledging a fraternity required a certain code of conduct of integrity and honor—a secret handshake if you will in sports—bowing to the time-honored tradition of sportsmanship.  And during the hazing period of earning access to that secret handshake, one was expected to pay homage to “the code”.  It’s a new world and nostalgia smolders in fires long extinguished by a dampening “the code”.

  33. "Old Yank" Schneider 07:03am, 07/15/2011

    del g—I agree with much of what you say.  Fans have gone at each other over the Mayweather/Pacquiao controversy with an intensity that begs us to demand that they get a room and leave us sane people out of the intercourse!  But I will assure you once again that it has never been my intent to smear Pacquiao.  To the contrary, I’ve been an advocate of anti-doping testing reform since long before the Mayweather/Pacquiao imbroglio.  For more than a decade I’ve written and posted with passion about it—warning that the day was coming when innocent fighters would have fair-minded fans attaching asterisks to accomplishments simply because they have had so much simple truth hidden from them.  PEACE.

  34. del g 05:10am, 07/15/2011

    Iron Beach, Btw, i cant think of anything that wouls save the small shows. Can anyone??

  35. del g 05:00am, 07/15/2011

    Old Yank, Lets be real here. You have written a very good article on this chosen subject. And when this subject gets brought up , mainly by Vivek Wallace, then pounced upon by many till the post count is past 1000. It gets nowhere. As i said. I steer clear, coz some posters are clearly getting mentally ill on this debate. I still read the posts. And some you have posted on ESB. Clearly are not that of just a fight fan with “Innocent Suspicion”. We all get a bit carried away on Eastside sometimes. I have many times. But at times it seems more of a witchhunt, smear campaign etc etc on 1 man. It started with Floyd Snr after Hatton got parked. And now it has grown into a monster. What are your thoughts on my take on the way this has played out, and the actors (i will call them ) concerned. PEACE

  36. "Old Yank" Schneider 04:25am, 07/15/2011

    del g—Again, thank you for your kind words.  Also, let me be clear about how I see Manny Pacquiao: He is the greatest pure fighting machine we’ve been blessed to see since days gone by.  Presuming I win my grapple with “innocent suspicion”, he belongs in the all-time-great company of Henry Armstrong.  I WANT to be able to say to my grandchildren that I was there to watch this amazing fighter ply his craft.  I want my stories to be able to come to life for them in a way that is only possible when it is delivered from a conviction of the heart.  I need, for my heart and for my future story-telling, Manny Pacquiao to be the real, un-enhanced deal.

  37. David Ball aka Iron Beach 04:20am, 07/15/2011

    ‘Scuse please, that post directly above is mine, gotta’ get accustomed to posting my name every time on this site.

  38. Your Name 04:17am, 07/15/2011

    You’re still ignoring the elephant in the room, and I’ll patiently wait ‘till one of you Einsteins can tell me how you prevent the demise of the….wait for it…....small market club shows!!

  39. del g 11:39pm, 07/14/2011

    Old Yank, thats fair enough also, imo and also of “The Thresher” the way in which you go about this on Esb is sometimes over the top and the manner in which you post sometimes is a defenite downgrade on Pac’s acheivements. Nowhere near as bad as our Mexican friend. Thats just downright hate, of which there is no known cure. This article i really like and have posted it to many friends on FB, some agree with you, some dont. But thats what makes great debate. I can debate with you no problem, we always have. With our Mexican friend. Its just hate. So thats why i steer clear. Keep em comin tho, coz it has been warmly received by many in my region. Del

  40. "Old Yank" Schneider 05:46pm, 07/14/2011

    Thresher—Like it or not, Nevada appears to have the ball rolling on anti-doping enforcement REFORM.  It is only a matter of time until all negotiation BS is taken out of the hands of men like Mayweather and Pacquiao and they will TEST or lose their licenses.  All fighters have a choice—be at the vanguard of the reforms or appear to be fighting them.

  41. "Old Yank" Schneider 05:43pm, 07/14/2011

    The Thresher—I get your point.  But what if my heart actually feels that all the circumstantial stuff means something and my admiration for Pacquiao tugs me toward innocence?  The net sum of these feelings is leaving me stuck in the middle of the road.  Believe me, I get it!  I never told my children that a monster did not live under their bed because I did not want to introduce the thought in the first place—so I truly understand what the impact of introducing suspicion to an innocent man can mean.  But I’m human.  I can’t ignore the stupidity of boxing for not doing real testing.  I can’t ignore Graham and Ariza and Roach all being around steroid users.  I can’t ignore getting wet when it rains.  As I said in the article, I personally believe Pacquiao is likely clean.  But I “suffer” from “innocent suspicion” and I’m ENTITLED to as a fair-man who is human.

  42. The Thresher 04:16pm, 07/14/2011

    Smearing” Pacquiao.  is achieved by your denying it. That’s an old trick. You knwo that as well as anyone. The more you deny something, the more you expose it to others. I belive Shakespear had something to say about that..

  43. "Old Yank" Schneider 04:12pm, 07/14/2011

    del g—Fair enough.  With so much attention given to saying the same things over and over again, I don’t blame you for steering clear of the topic.  But I do object to being characterized as “smearing” Pacquiao.  On both sides of the street are opposing views that insist that no fan is entitled to take the middle ground.  For those who insist that I and others abandon “innocent suspicion” and insist on Pacquiao’s innocence, indeed I’ve gone over-the-top to point out all the reasons why innocent suspicion is legit.  In doing so I’ve likely been taken out of context a time or two and accused of “smearing” Pacquiao.  It was never the intent.  The intent was to paint a case to rabid Pacquiao fans that reasonable, fair-minded fans have a host of logical points that support their middle ground of “innocent suspicion”.  PEACE

  44. "Old Yank" Schneider 01:51pm, 07/14/2011

    The Thresher—Thanx for not quitting on your stool and failing to come out for the next round!

  45. The Thresher 01:17pm, 07/14/2011

    “The Thresher— I’m right a lot ” oH MY.

  46. "Old Yank" Schneider 12:58pm, 07/14/2011

    Boxtradamus—We stand together on this topic. Nice way to invoke the “can do” spirit! Thanx for the kind words.

  47. Boxtradamus 12:49pm, 07/14/2011

    The author is correct. What’s the use of having rules if they are not enforced?? The rules should either be enforced or removed. We need to find people who have a CAN DO attitude instead of a CAN’T DO attitude. These are the type of people that change the World. The Einsteins, Kennedys, Lincolns, Bill Gates’s, etc…We CAN DO proper drug testing….Its time to eliminate the “stating the roadblocks” stage and move on to the “create a solution” stage. This article is a GREAT start. Great job!!

  48. del g 12:47pm, 07/14/2011

    Old Yank. these past couple of years i’m sure you have noticed i keep my distance on esb threads concerning May-Pac and peds debates. Its running round in circles on there. Never gonna get to a conclusion. Innocent Suspicion is the perfect headline. But on some threads, you have smeared the name of Pacquaio ( as if to be guilty). The Maywethers started this, along with Shaefer and ODLH. The last 2 have apologised. I bet the May’s wish they had kept their mouths closed on this. As I say tho Inoccent Suspicion is cool with me. Stories of the fanboys on any site are not. I know you are not a fanboy, but on some threads, you do aim all of your protests on testing at Pac. And there’s hundreds who would agree. Just telling it how it is. Del

  49. "Old Yank" Schneider 12:22pm, 07/14/2011

    The Thresher— I’m right a lot —and open to being talked out of my positions. I paint a target on my back everytime I take a stand. My words are intended to draw shots. If you got it, bring it. It’s just a different point of view—not intended to be dismissive. And this is boxing—defense and offense are both wired into the sport and fans. I’m a fan. PEACE.

  50. The Thresher 11:56am, 07/14/2011

    This writer is way too defensive. Why should I bother to comment only to have my comments dismissed out of hand. Is he always right?

  51. "Old Yank" Schneider 11:27am, 07/14/2011

    “Politics is the art of the possible” (Otto Von Bismarck). The politics (and economics) of credible anti-doping enforcement needs to be focused on what is possible, not on all that stands in the way.

  52. "Old Yank" Schneider 10:28am, 07/14/2011

    Iron Beach—Your fears are way out of proportion. Small ticket fees create a pool of money for testing. Important, sanctioned title bouts would be subject to sophisticated testing (more costly), while small-venue bouts with “road warriors” fighting for travel money would likely retain event-day urine testing with the ocasional random test to keep things honest. There is NOTHING in Nevada’s plan or any workable plan that injects costly testing for every bout large and small.

  53. David Ball aka Iron Beach 09:56am, 07/14/2011

    No Yank I don’t think ya’ do get my point. How do the small club shows with slight profit margins, where something as fickle as the weather can ruin your walkup gate, deal with paying for upfront testing for fighters that may not even be from the area/state that the show is taking place in. You are ignoring those facts in your noble efforts to bring this testing to the sport, there is NO way shows in small market areas survive…you keep quoting Nevada stats…how ‘bout 500-1,000 seat shows in Kansas, Nebraska, West Virginia, North Carolina or here in Florida…they WILL DIE. It is just not a practical reality at present and all it will do is drive small promoters and small venues out of the sport. NO body can promote a show in that fan range and afford testing for 6-8 fighters, it simply can’t be done. The average ticket prices for a show like that is $20, with less than 100 available at ringside for $30…pay the commission, venue, doctors, EMTs and your insurance bond…not to mention the legwork, advertising, and hotel/travel expenses that does NOT leave $$$ for testing the fighters. Unless of course you’ve devised a way around paying for anything but testing procedures. Its a nice dream…but its not practical. You WILL KILL the small shows!!

  54. "Old Yank" Schneider 08:55am, 07/14/2011

    Iron Beach—I DO get your point. But your point needs to be couched in facts in order for your fears to be real. Nevada Gov. Brian Sandoval on June 17th, signed a law allowing money from an EXISTING TICKET FEE to pay for anti-doping testing (including random drug screenings at any time including training periods). Current law includes ticket fees for live professional fights. The Nevada Athletic Commission gets $1 per person for large events and 50 cents for small events that gross less than $500,000. The money goes to grants to support organizations promoting amateur fights in Nevada. The new law allows the athletic commission to divert some of the money to test amateur or professional fighters for performance-enhancing drugs. The law went into effect July 1st. Iron Beach, c’mon bro, let’s get real. Are you saying that fans can’t afford 50 cents for small bouts and a buck for mega bouts to help solve this crisis? Or now that you know that we are only talking about only 50 cents to a buck, are your fears diminished? 

  55. David Ball aka Iron Beach 08:10am, 07/14/2011

    Yank, evidently you’re missing the point here…its the SMALL club shows that will suffer, thus the boxers working their way up suffer as well. What’s your solution or do you still refuse to acknowledge that will be a problem…c’mon man I know you see what I’m sayin’...and as far as the business references concerning the testing that will include many shows currently in place on a semi-regular basis. Most states require a minimum rds. quota to present a show meaning you must have 4-6 fighters to RDT…unaffordable for most. You WILL KILL the club shows and strangle the development of up and comers and mid level fighters. All fights can’t be in Nevada Casinos. EOS!!

  56. "Old Yank" Schneider 07:55am, 07/14/2011

    Iron Beach—I get your point. But any business that can’t pass the increased cost of doing business to its consumers is doomed to fail. Credible anti-doping enforcement is expensive compared to even-day urine testing. And current testing costs are already built into ticket process in Nevada. Did you know that? Nevada simply opened the door for new testing to be included in ticket prices.

  57. "Old Yank" Schneider 07:50am, 07/14/2011

    The Thresher—I don’t get it. Should the “discussion embargo” apply to all matters that require proof, or just to Manny Pacquiao? No one should have discussed OJ? How about Casey Anthony? Weapons of mass destruction? Implication of the innocent when an entire sport is indicted? Global warming? I disagree with your assertion; I believe all is fair when a system is as flawed as the current state of anti-doping enforcement.

  58. The Thresher 07:32am, 07/14/2011

    Unless you can PROVE it, you should not discuss it. And I too 100% disagree that the fans should shoulder the expense of the expanded testing in the form of higher ticket prices.

  59. David Ball aka Iron Beach 07:31am, 07/14/2011

    Well dammit Yank I know that the fans are the ones to pay in the end…I just vehemently disagree with it. Boxing is in enough trouble on the club level as it stands, I fear this will effectivly choke the the small venues out of the scene. Where and HOW do we develop talent without it? This country and most of the world is experiencing a recession at best and possibly a depression on the not too distant horizon. Myself and some others are planning some club shows and believe me the budget is extremely tight, any upfront money for testing is out of the question. What now, kill the club shows?

  60. "Old Yank" Schneider 03:50am, 07/14/2011

    Oh, and Del g, the Armstrong example is one that illustrates three things: 1) how far a hero-like athlete will go to perform like the hero he’s expected to perform like, 2) the lengths a sports-hero will go through to object to accusations leveled against him, and 3) how hard the fall is when a sports hero is exposed—hard for him and hard on his fans.

  61. "Old Yank" Schneider 03:42am, 07/14/2011

    Del g—Appreciate your compliments. And I dito my response to Bill Patrice Jones to you. Did Mayweather go over-the-top? Probably yes! But often we perk up when flamboyant “negotiations” are done in public. I’m curious why we all got so bent out of shape when Mayweather added the element of trash-talk to a pre-fight round of negotiations.

  62. "Old Yank" Schneider 03:38am, 07/14/2011

    Bill Patrice Jones—Thanx for the kind words. In actuality, if the truth be known, Kermit Cintron went public with suspicions about Pacquio before Mayweather did and Cintron was not alone. Paulie Malignaggi also voiced his suspicions about Pacquiao before Mayweather made USADA testing a negotiation breaker with Pacquiao. So some fans add to their list of reasons behind “reasonable suspicion” the fact that other fighters were raising an eyebrow over how fast Pacquiao got big before any serious management exchanges were made about bringing Pacquiao and Mayweather together in the ring.

  63. Del g 01:28am, 07/14/2011

    Very good article, I agree with everything Bill Patrice Jones has to say on the article. The lengths people will go to (Armstrong and fellow cyclists) is truly shocking. That’s just the way things are in all sports with the cash incentives/endorsements/sponsorship involved. Boxing will have a bigger PED problem than many of us would like to beleive if we could see the whole truth. Back on Bill’s post though, The Mayweathers campaign to smear the name of Manny Pacquaio (and they will have their day in court) is way out of line imo. All in all, the headline is perfect though. Innocent Suspicion. Is what we are all entitled to? Hopefully all will be revealed one day, either way on this subject. Then we can move on, and truly try to clean up boxing. Again, very well written. Del

  64. Bill Patrice Jones 11:23pm, 07/13/2011

    Good article, but the truth is no one would be talking about this were it not for Floyd Mayweather. All of the above may be true, and fans may have legitimate suspicions about fighters using PEDs. However, no one ever spoke about it with Pacquiao in mind before Mayweather made his allegations. Floyd himself didn’t care one bit about ‘cleaning up the sport’ until he needed an excuse not to fight Pacquiao. Yes boxing has had drugs cheats, but many of the high profile ones were at some stage caught. (Toney/Mosley/Klitschko/Fortune) etc.

  65. "Old Yank" Schneider 09:59pm, 07/13/2011

    bergmuff—Mayweather is the DEFENDANT in the lawsuit brought by Pacquiao (the PLAINTIFF). This places Mayweather (in the suit) as “innocent unless proven guilty.” The burden of PROOF in the lawsuit is on Pacquiao’s shoulders, not Mayweather’s.

  66. "Old Yank" Schneider 09:56pm, 07/13/2011

    Dave—From cable subscriptions to PPV buys to event tickets, 100% of all money in boxing essentially initiates from the pockets of fans. All money can be traced back to the pocket of a fan. If fighters pay for testing, it will come out of their purse.  Their purse comes from the promoter. The promoter gets money from ticket, PPV and cable shows (HBO, SHO, ESPN). Cable shows get their money from subscribers. Subscribers are fans. Boxing ain’t the US government where money can be printed out of nowhere. All paths lead back to the fans’ pocket.

  67. David Ball 09:08pm, 07/13/2011

    Nice site, good article, but I 100% disagree that the fans should shoulder the expense of the expanded testing in the form of higher ticket prices.

  68. bergmuff 08:44pm, 07/13/2011

    the crackweathers and the flomos are foaming in the mouth when making these allegations of the pacman on PEDS. now that there is a lawsuit, the crackweather did not appear in court and the flomos are crying in the internet accusing the pacman of not subjecting himself to floyds demands. well, here it is now a golden opportunity to prove their allegations in court but instead, no one appeared and the crying in the internet continues. duck em in the ring, duck em in court and engage in internet boxing only.

  69. "Old Yank" Schneider 06:42pm, 07/13/2011

    I am a boxing fan; a plain and simple fan—a passionate fan. Although I’ve written, posted, blogged and blathered for other sites, I am personally thrilled to be associated with boxing.com. I am truly humbled by the company I’m in with this team of fine writers. To have articles and video and stats and more all connected is a dream come true for me as a fan. PEACE to all fans! I genuinely hope you enjoy my work. (small print: And if you don’t like my words, I truly hope you have the ability to raise trash-talk to an art form, because any fan that can deliver with passion is a fan I enjoy being around.)

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