My Top Pound-for-Pound Fighters (Since 1945): Numbers 1-10

By Ted Sares on August 31, 2013
My Top Pound-for-Pound Fighters (Since 1945): Numbers 1-10
The AP named him both the greatest welterweight and middleweight boxer of the century.

I analyzed their records, style, chin, KO percentages, skill-sets, entire body of work, quality of opposition, and especially the era in which they fought…

“I know a lot of guys are gonna complain about me having Gene Tunney on there, but how can you complain when a guy only lost one out of 77 fights, and you know Harry Greb belongs on there….well he beat Harry Greb three out of four—anyone who loses one out of 77 with those great fighters I gotta put ‘em.”—Teddy Atlas

I have never seen a list of great boxers that is the “correct” list; there is no such thing. Attempts can be made to close the gap by quantification, but in the end, the entirely subjective nature of any list comparing fighters across different weight categories and different eras is bound to be the subject of heated debate. Nonetheless, many have had a go at it.

The late Bert Sugar had it this way:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson

Respected historian/writer Tracy Callis compiled his best pound-for-pound as follows:

1. Bob Fitzsimmons
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
4. Sam Langford
5. Charley Mitchell
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Stanley Ketchel
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Philadelphia Jack O’Brien
10. Harry Greb

Historian and writer Mike Casey of rates the top pound-for-pound fighters along these lines:

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Gans
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. Sam Langford
6. Jimmy Wilde
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Eder Jofre

Matt McGrain of wrote a well-researched top 100 list this past year and had his top ten as follows:

1. Sam Langford
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Joe Gans
9. Joe Louis
10. Roberto Duran

In 2007, listed their 50 greatest boxers of all-time. The goal was not an ‘all-time, mythical pound-for-pound ranking’ but rather an assessment based on four criteria: in-ring performance, achievements, dominance, and mainstream appeal. The top ten were:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Willie Pep
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Jack Johnson
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Sam Langford

In 2002, Ring Magazine published the following top ten based on a ranking of the 80 best fighters of the previous 80 years:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker

On November 27, 1998, all time pound-for-pound ratings were discussed on ESPN Friday Night Fights. Here was Max Kellerman’s list:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Harry Greb
5. Sam Langford
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Benny Leonard
10. Ezzard Charles

Teddy Atlas countered with his own list:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Benny Leonard
5. Sam Langford
6. Harry Greb
7. Micky Walker
8. Roberto Duran
9. Gene Tunney
10. Carlos Monzon

There are additional “Top Tens” too numerous to list, but at some point one has to say “enough,” which, of course, leads me to my own list of the ten best pound-for-pound fighters since 1945. Why since 1945? Because I actually witnessed each listed boxer fight at one time or another (except Jofre). Of course, I carefully analyzed their records, style, chin, KO percentages, skill-sets, entire body of work, quality of opposition, and especially the era in which they fought, as well as other important criteria.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson. His final record was a gaudy 175-19-6-2 with 109 KOs. In a career that spanned three decades, Sugar Ray embodied the essence of the Sweet Science. He was a world welterweight champion and held the middleweight title five times. He never lost to a welterweight. When he gave up the 147-pound title to challenge Jake LaMotta for the middleweight championship in 1951, his record was 121-1-2. The lone loss was to LaMotta and both draws were against middleweights. Incredibly, he was so great for so long that he won his first Fighter of the Year award in 1942 and his second award in 1951. Talk about bookends! In 201 fights over an amazing twenty-five-year career, Robinson failed to finish a fight only once when he was felled by heat prostration against Joey Maxim in a fight he was winning handily. In 1999, the Associated Press named him both the greatest welterweight and middleweight boxer of the century. The fact that he appears as Number One on seven of the nine lists cited in this article is compelling. The fact that I don’t have to say much more says it all.

Sugar Ray Robinson was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1990 with the first class of boxing legends.

“You always say I’ll quit when I start to slide, and then one morning you wake up and realize you’ve done slid.”—Robinson.

2. Willie Pep had an astonishing record of 230-11-1 with 65 KOs and an incredible 1955 rounds boxed.  Nicknamed “Will o’ the Wisp” for his elusiveness, Pep is considered, along with Nicolino “El Intocable” Locche (117-4-14), one of boxing’s all-time great defensive artists. He held the featherweight title for six years and outfoxed all comers. Pep is best remembered for his physical and dirty series of fights against fellow Hall of Famer Sandy Saddler. He turned pro in 1940 and won his first sixty-three fights. In 1942, Pep won the NYSAC featherweight title by a decision over Chalky Wright. Pep’s first loss came the following year when he dropped a non-title fight to former lightweight champion Sammy Angott. His comeback after a being seriously injured in a plane crash was remarkable and virtually seamless.

Willie Pep passed away in a nursing home in 2006. “Iceman” John Scully and Marlon “Moochie” Starling were the only former professional fighters at his funeral. No promoters, managers, or commentators were present. How soon they forget.

“Sometimes there seemed to be music playing for him (Willie Pep) alone and he danced to his private orchestra and the ring became a ballroom.”—Jimmy Cannon

3. Joe Louis. “The Brown Bomber,” 69–3 with 55 KOs, is rated by many as the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time. He successfully defended his title 25 times. Joe used a lightening quick jab and was subtly lethal with one-punch KO power in either hand. He was very economical; he never wasted a punch, nor did he waste much foot movement, moving only as much as needed but always within deadly reach of his opponent.

He fought greats like Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Max Schmeling, Max Baer, Buddy Baer, Billy Conn and many others. In 1950, hounded by the IRS, he returned to the ring, but after a series of wins, was knocked out in 1951 by a prime and rugged Rocky Marciano, after which he permanently retired.

When I was a kid, Joe Louis was everyone’s hero. And even as a young child, I was amazed at how much power he could generate with such a short punch and just how fast he threw that punch. Because of his short punches and combos, only aficionados and Louis victims really knew how fast his hands were. The thing is, he “invented” the one-two.

When he lost to Rocky Marciano, many wept, for Joe had transcended the sport and was viewed as America’s fighter. Fact is, Joe Louis was neither brown nor white; he simply was the most beloved champion in boxing history.

“I was privileged and will always be grateful to have had Joe Louis as my friend. The son of an Alabama sharecropper, Joe Louis fought his way to the top of professional boxing and into the hearts of millions of Americans. Out of the ring, he was a considerate and soft-spoken man; inside the ring, his courage, strength, and consummate skill wrote a unique and unforgettable chapter in sports history. But Joe Louis was more than a sports legend – his career was an indictment of racial bigotry and a source of pride and inspiration to millions of white and black people around the world.”—President Ronald Reagan (April 13, 1981)

4. Eder Jofre. His record was 72-2-4 with 50 KOs. He was the greatest fighter who fought under the radar. Jofre represented Brazil in the 1956 Olympics and then turned professional in 1957 at the age of 21. Jofre’s nickname was “the Golden Bantam,” and he was one of the few champions to have never suffered a knockout.

With one-punch knockout power in either hand, Eder also was a slickster with great technical skills and reflexes in the style of Sugar Ray Robinson. He had it all including an iron chin. He was a classic body puncher who would wear his opponents down before moving upstairs for the kill. He did his work in a bobbing and weaving manner. Perhaps Jofre’s most amazing quality was his ability to adapt his style. If necessary, this fistic artisan could engage in a brawl, but he could be a cutie as well—whatever the situation required.

In 1965, Jofre lost his world bantamweight titles to Fighting Harada in a highly controversial SD in Nagoya, Japan. Harada would beat him again by a razor-thin margin in Tokyo in 1966. Both fights were savage ones. He retired but made a successful comeback three years later.

By going undefeated in his first fifty fights, he managed to bookend his career in a uniquely positive way—fifty in front and twenty-five at the end. Even the great Sugar Ray Robinson, to whom Jofre is often compared, did not have such an auspicious start and superb ending.

Unfortunately, few videos of Jofre fights exist. His fights with Harada and a complete version of his first win over Jose Medel on August 18, 1960, in Los Angeles may be the only complete fights in existence. Thus, historic accounts and word-of-mouth are the only other means of learning about this fighter’s greatness. However, there is a documentary entitled O Grande Campeão with film highlights, though most of it involves fights near the end of Jofre’s career. It can be ordered through the Web.

Reflecting his low profile status, Jofre was inducted into the IBHOF in 1992. Masahiko “Fighting” Harada, the only boxer to beat Jofre, was inducted in 1995, and is arguably Japan’s greatest fighter ever. Both are in the WBHF as well.

“Herb Goldman ranked Jofre as the #1 All-Time Bantamweight; IBRO ranked him as the #1 All-Time Bantamweight; Dan Cuoco, Director of IBRO, ranked Jofre as the #2 All-Time Pound-For-Pound boxer in ring history, second only to “Sugar” Ray Robinson.”—Tracy Callis

5. Muhammad Ali, 56-5 with 37 KOs. He was the dominant fighter of the 1960s and 1970s. A fighter of exceptional speed and flair, he won the world heavyweight title on three separate occasions over a period of fifteen years, but his trilogy with Kenny Norton, two mediocre fights against Leon Spinks and controversial wins against Henry Cooper and Jimmy Young diminished, at least to some degree, his self-proclaimed nickname of “The Greatest.” On the other hand, his two hard-fought wins against Joe Frazier, his wins over Sonny Liston, and his upset of George Foreman truly cemented his reputation, as did his victories against Shavers, Lyle, Williams and Quarry. Ali’s fight against an old Zora Folley at Madison Square Garden in 1967 perhaps showcased him at his brilliant best.  And no heavyweight ever fought a higher level of opposition

Quite simply, Ali was the perfect person for his time.

“I love boxing and it did a lot for me. But sometimes it made me think how savage human beings could be to each other. That wasn’t the kind of boxer I wanted to be. My strategy was to be as scientific as I could when I fought. I didn’t want to be seriously hurt, and I didn’t want to do that to anybody else either.”—Ali.

6. Carlos “Escopeta” (Shotgun) Monzon finished with a record of 87-3-9 with 59 KOs. This powerful and rangy Argentinean killing machine first captured the World Middleweight Boxing Championship in a shocking upset over the highly favored Nino Benvenuti. Who can forget Monzon moving across the ring to deliver the perfect right to the jaw that was the coup de grace for Nino? Overnight, Monzon became the toast of the boxing world. Handsome and macho, he became a superstar and a favorite of the jet set. Some said he pushed his punches. If so, he pushed them to 87 wins. He also became only the second man to stop former three-time world champion Emile Griffith. Blessed with great stamina and a granite chin, he seemingly was an irresistible force and was unbeaten over the last eighty-one bouts of his career, a span of thirteen years!

“Carlos never did stop walking on the wild side and certainly never found the secret to controlling the raging temper that he mastered so well within the roped square.”—Mike Casey

7. Sandy Saddler. His final slate was 144-16-3 with 103 KOs. One of the greatest fighters ever, Joseph “Sandy” Saddler was a two-time featherweight champion of the world, and also held the junior lightweight title. Over his twelve-year career, 1944–1956, he scored an eye-popping 103 knockouts. He was stopped only once in his career, and that in his second fight. He is best known for his brutal and foul-filled series of fights with Willie Pep (230-11-1). Saddler first fought Pep in 1948. At the time, Pep was the reigning featherweight champion of the world, and had a record of 135-1. Saddler, who was one of the hardest pound-for-pound punchers of all time, captured the title by knocking Pep down four times on his way to a fourth-round knockout victory. Had his career not been cut short by a non-boxing accident, there is no telling how far he could have gone. 

Willie Pep said: ”He beat me with a double arm lock.”

Sandy Saddler said: “I thought a punch to the kidney did it. If they say I twisted his arm, okay, I twisted it.”

8. Sugar Ray Leonard’s record was 35-3-1 with 25 KOs. Like Muhammad Ali, he was equipped with super speed, ability, and charisma. Leonard filled the boxing void left when Ali retired in 1981. With the American public in search of a new boxing superstar, Leonard came along at just the right moment. Like Ali, he eventually became another right person for the right time. An Olympic gold medal winner, he was named Fighter of the Decade for the 1980s. Ray won an unprecedented five world titles in five weight classes and competed in some of the era’s most memorable bouts. Sugar Ray also won the unofficial round robin of his era by beating Benitiz, Duran, Hearns and Hagler—enough of a platform for entry into any Boxing Hall of Fame. No one could exploit an opponent’s weaknesses better than Leonard and there have been few more ruthless closers in boxing history. Sugar Ray Leonard was the first boxer to earn over $100 million dollars in purse money. Unfortunately and, like so many, Ray stayed on two fights too many.

“A fighter never knows when it’s the last bell. He doesn’t want to face that.”—Leonard

9. Roberto “Manos de Piedra” Duran finished with a 103-16 with 70 KOs record. He was regarded by many as the greatest lightweight of all time and one of the top five pound-for-pound fighters ever. He held world titles at four different weights: lightweight (1972–79), welterweight (1980), junior middleweight (1983–84), and middleweight (1989). He was also the only boxer to have fought in five different decades. When he lost to Sugar Ray Leonard in 1980, his record was 71-1. 

After hitting a bad patch in 1982, he mounted a comeback and beat fellow Hall of Famer Pipino Cuevas by stoppage. Against WBA junior middleweight hampion Davey Moore in June 1983, Roberto showed his savage side by perpetrating a brutal beatdown. The fight was finally stopped in the eighth round as Moore was taking an unnecessarily bloody beating. Duran had won his third world title. The crowd was up and roaring, “Doooooran, Doooooran.” He later beat Iran “The Blade” Barkley in a thriller to cop his final championship. Again, “Dooooooran,  Doooooran” rang out. Both were spine tingling affairs.  Even at the end of his long career, an argument can be made that he should have been given at least one decision against both Hector Camacho and Vinnie Pazienza.

10. As for Number 10, a number of possibilities emerge. Great fighters like Roy Jones Jr., Aaron Pryor, Marvelous Marvin Hagler, Archie Moore, Salvador Sanchez, and Julio Cesar Chavez Sr. could fill the slot, but if forced to pick just one man who fought at the very highest level of competition, it would be difficult not to select the great “Cincinnati Cobra,” Ezzard Mack Charles.

10. Ezzard Charles (1940-1959)

“Someday, maybe, the public is going to abandon comparisons with Joe Louis and accept Ezzard Charles for what he was – the best fist-fighter of his particular time.”—Red Smith

Charles was a 1939 Chicago Golden Gloves Champion and National AAU titleholder (reportedly his amateur record was 42-0) who turned pro the following year and fought until 1959 finishing with a record of 90-25-1 (58 KOs). But it’s his level of opposition that stands out. In 1954, he fought Rocky Marciano twice—grueling fights that may have “damaged” him (referee Ruby Goldstein said he did not have to say “Break” at any time during the first bout). He iced both bomber Bob Satterfield and tough Coley Wallace, lost decisions to Harold Johnson (41-5) and Nino Valdes, and beat Billy Gilliam, Rex Layne, Tommy Harrison (of’ “Resurrecting the Champ” fame) and rugged Wes Bascom. The following year, he fought Charley Norkus and Tommy “Hurricane” Jackson (twice).

The Cobra did his best work prior to 1952 when he beat Joe Maxim five times
(they fought 62 rounds in all), Layne, Jersey Joe Walcott twice, mean and dirty Lee Oma, Nick “The Fighting Marine” Barone, Joe Louis , Freddie Beshore (in a classic), Gus Lesnevich, Archie Moore thrice (88-13-8 coming in), and the great Jimmy Bivins twice.

Charles won his first fourteen professional fights but then lost to Ken Overlin (120-19-6) in 1941. He later drew with Overlin who finished with a record of 133-19-9. After losing to the very capable Kid Tunero (75-23-12) in 1942, he beat legendary Charley Burley (52-6-1) in back-to-back fights. Among other subsequent victims was the enigmatic Lloyd Marshall (59-13-3) twice. Marshall was no slouch and defeated eight fighters who held world titles. While he lost to Charles twice, he did stop him in 1943 decking him eight—count ‘em—eight times. Charles also whipped Oakland Billy Smith twice, but lost to hard punching Elmer “Kid Violent” Ray in 1947 in a terrible decision. Ring Magazine said Charles “was the faster, the better boxer, and the sharper hitter.” (From The Ring, October 1947, page 42).

In 1948, The Cobra knocked out Sam Baroudi who died from injuries sustained in the bout held at the Chicago Stadium. Some later speculated that the emotionally devastated Charles had become overly cautious afterwards—even to the point of trying not to hurt his opponents. Where previously the slick Cobra was a ultra-dangerous fighting machine, he now appeared to some to have lost much of his venom and desire. Still, his post-Baroudi record does not necessarily bear this out, as he went on a long winning streak following the fateful Chicago fight. However, toward his career end, he lost seven of his last nine bouts, but still fought stiff opposition.

Like many greats who hang on too long, Charles faded into obscurity, especially after his last draining fight against Marciano. And from 1955 until his retirement in 1959, he fought twenty four times, winning only ten which, of course, diluted to some extent his legacy. However, nothing can ever dilute the following encapsulation reflecting, in part, the incredible level of his opposition:

Rocky Marciano (twice) IBHF/WBHF
Jersey Joe Walcott (four times) IBHF/WBHF
Archie Moore (thrice) IBHF/WBHF
Rex Layne (thrice)
Joe Maxim (five times) IBHF/WBHF
Jimmy Bivins (four times) IBHF/WBHF
Charley Burley (twice) IBHF/WBHF
Lloyd Marshall (thrice) WBHF
Gus Lesnevich WBHF
Ken Overlin (twice)
Elmer Ray (twice)
Harold Johnson IBHF/WBHF
Bob Satterfield

Names like Moore, Burley and Bivins are mentioned in conversations reserved only for the legendary, but when you add Marciano, Walcott, and Joe Louis, well, maybe “legendary” becomes “immortal.” Charles fought them all.

Ezzard Charles died in 1975 from ALS, also known as Lou Gehrig’s disease at the young age of 53. In 1976. Cincinnati honored him by changing the name of Lincoln Park Drive to Ezzard Charles Drive. This was the street of his residence during the height of his career. Charles was inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame in 1983 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1990.

Postscript: The above is a revised version of an article that appeared in the July 2013 edition of Boxing World Magazine, and is reproduced here with their grateful permission.

My Top Pound-for-Pound Fighters (Since 1945): Numbers 1-10
My Top Pound-for-Pound Fighters (Since 1945): Numbers 11-15
My Top Pound-for-Pound Fighters (Since 1945): Numbers 16-20
My Top Pound-for-Pound Fighters (Since 1945): Numbers 21-25

Follow us on Twitter@boxing_com to continue the discussion

HD Sugar Ray Robinson Knockouts & Highlights

Willie Pep Smooth Boxing Skills

HD Joe Louis Knockouts

Éder Jofre X Fighting Harada I

Muhammad Ali Tribute (GP)

Carlos Monzon breaks Nino Benvenuti

Willie Pep vs Sandy Saddler

Sugar Ray Leonard Knockouts & Highlights

Roberto Duran Top 10 Knockouts

Ezzard Charles - Sweet Scientist

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  1. Ted 06:34pm, 09/24/2013

    The Klits rule

  2. EZ E 05:05pm, 09/24/2013

    There probably will be more ‘controversy’ (if the word fits) when Roy Jones Jr and Bhop finally retire. To be honest, I seriously considered Oscar in my ‘Honorable Mentions’ 1945+ list. I believe that Toney has severely damaged his legacy with very distasteful antics, anti-biolics suspensions and refusing to bring the curtain down. How about the Klits?? Will they be treated fairly?? Manny?? I don’t believe he’too far away from calling it quits, same goes for Juan Manuel Marquez. Like Monte kind’a, things can change rather abruptly in a relatively short period of time. Get ready!!

  3. EZ E 04:06pm, 09/24/2013

    MONTE, I know that these list are based on individual opinions mix with facts and knowledge there will be NO 100% agreements, regardless. I see and respect your views in reference to Lopez but.. that’s not his fault. He fought in his weight class and he did successfully move up to the NEXT division. It was already organized that way by the orgs. Jimmy Wilde was an ATG fighter and I did include him on my ATG of All ERAS list, if you noticed, while I have ‘Finito’ on the 1945+ list. Do ALL fighters have to jump up one or TWO weight classes above his NATURAL weight to define greatness?? Did Wilde?? Hagler maintained himself in the Middleweight division because he was a relatively small middleweight compared to today’s 160LB dehydrated/rehydrated middleweights. Goody Petronelli said that Marvin could’ve fought at 154Lbs without a struggle. He never gave the 175lb division any thought. Look at Monzon, he never sought a 175lb title either, and he was a rather large felow. Should they be considered any less great?? Should they be exiled to “second rate” “generic” greatness?? There are many examples of GREAT fighters that remained in their weight classes during their prime years. The ATGs Wilie Pep, Sandy Sadler, Benny Leonard, HOFérs Vicente Saldivar, Antonio Cervantes, Aaron Pryor, Eusebio Pedroza, Miguel Canto… never sought titles in other weight divisions. Many fighters move up, not because of weight issues, but because of the MONEY involved and many that have done so have failed miserably. Bob Foster was a GREAT Light Heavyweight but an UN-successful hwt. Does that detract from his merits or make him any less GREAT Lightheavy?? Wilde NEVER sought another division title, which would’ve been the 118LB Bantam class. WHY NOT?? Probably because he well understood that it wasn’t a good idea and/or felt good, more confident in his NATURAL weight class. Fighting Harada said that the reason he moved 112lbs to the Bantam division was because he could no longer make the weight, otherwise he would’ve stayed and then admitted that he then jumped up again because he was tired of the sacrifices to remain a bantam. No, there’s no way for there to be complete harmony when knowledgeable fight folks compile list or analyze dream fights, for sure. Just putting out my point in defense of Ricardo Lopez on my ATG 1945+ era. Saludos to MONTE and all us boxing lovers!!

  4. Ted 02:28pm, 09/24/2013

    Understood, Monte

  5. Monte Cox 02:26pm, 09/24/2013

    Im not sure I want to respond to a top 10 all time list request at this time. Simple reason. I believe we will be redoing the IBRO poll again next year for publication in 2015, 10 years after the first one to see how things/opinions have changed over the last decade. Anything I give now might change in 6 months.I know I was really impressed with the Langford-Jeannette film that surfaced recently and Sam will be firmly entrenched in my all time top 3, but I want to completely reevaluate and will spend considerable time doing it. I’m not that impressed with Ricardo Lopez yes he was dominant but I feel those are manufactured weight classes. Jimmy Wilde weighed the same as Lopez and fought legit Flyweights and even heavier opponents with great success. He is the standard bearer at those weights. If Lopez was as good as those heralding his abilities he should have fought for the 112 pound title.

  6. Ted the Bull 02:09pm, 09/24/2013

    EZ E. Those are two very fine lists that reflect your great knowledge of boxing. I hope Monte sees them so he can respond. I’ll nudge him with an email.

    More later

  7. EZ E 12:43pm, 09/24/2013

    UNCLE TEDDY Okay, you asked for my list, huh? Ya know, to be honest, I’ve never really given it much thought about my top 10 fighters. But now, at your request, here I go. AND… like yourself, I decided that I’d rather divide them in two separate eras.

    ALL TIME GREATS Including pre-1945 fighters: 
    1. Sugar Ray Robinson
    2. Henry Armstrong
    3. Muhammad Ali
    4. Harry Greb
    5. Joe Louis
    6. Willie Pep
    7. Sam Langford
    8. Ezzard Charles
    9. Gene Tunney
    10. Eder Jofre
    * 10 Honorable Mentions (in no specific order): Jack Johnson, Benny Leonard, Mickey Walker, Jimmy Wilde, Charley Burley, Tony Canzoneri, Joe Gans, Kid Chocolate, Jack Dempsey, Barney Ross

    ALL TIME GREATS—Post 1945:
    1. Sugar Ray Robinson
    2. Muhammad Ali
    3. Willie Pep
    4. Ezzard Charles
    5. Elder Jofre
    6. Archie Moore
    7. Roberto Duran
    8. Ricardo “Finito” Lopez
    9. Carlos Monzon
    10.  Tie: Sandy Sadler / Julio Cesar Chavez
    * 10 Honorable Mentions (in no specific order): Marvin Hagler, Mike Tyson, Ray Leonard, Alexis Arguello, Bob Foster, Wilfredo Gomez, Kaosai Galaxy, Salvador Sanchez, Emile Griffith, Pernell Whitaker

    Note: I did not include Joe Louis in the ‘Post 1945’ list because after he had come out of the he was already past his prime years, resuming his career in 1946, retired two years later and made a rather ill fated comeback.

    Why Ricardo “Finito”’ Lopez over Julio Cesar Chavez?? Well. Lopez TOTALLY DOMINATED his division before moving up to capture another title. Retired undefeated (51-0-1 38 KOs) with NOTHING else to prove. He washed the only ‘blemish’ (technical draw) in his record by defeating Rosendo Alvarez in rematch, with no foreseeable threats to his (very near) perfect record. Too bad the lower weights weren’t generating much interest whatsoever in the states during his reign, after all he didn’t receive the hype and fanfare like that of U.S. Olympian like Michael Carbajal.

  8. EZ E 04:57am, 09/17/2013

    MONTE, good points. But before we continue this very interesting topic, may I ask you to give us/me the list of your Top 10 ATGs??

  9. Monte Cox 04:23am, 09/17/2013

    @ Bikermike Ray Leonard is going to be remembered for more than just being well paid. He finished # 2 in the IBRO poll in 2005 at Welterweight. So he is already considered the second best 147 pounder in history. How many fights did Jim Jeffries have? Half as many as Leonard. How about Corbett? Leonard’s victories over Wilfred Benitez, a triple crown champion and youngest champ ever, Roberto Duran one of the 3 greatest lightweights ever and a damn good welterweight (see his wins over Palomino, Leonard), Thomas Hearns one of the greatest punchers in history p4p possibly the best 154 pounder ever, and Marvin Hagler a top 10 all time middleweight (and yes Leonard won 7-5) ensure his place among the all time greats.

  10. Ted 06:53pm, 09/16/2013

    Thanks Biker. Much appreciated.

  11. bikermike 06:31pm, 09/16/2013

    Ted….again…a very well researched article…...Very informative….and (c’ept for that leonard thing)....a great read…

    Keep ‘em coming Ted…..


  12. bikermike 06:25pm, 09/16/2013

    I think leonard will have to be satisfied as one of the best paid fighters of all time….and not one of the best fighters of all time….or since 1945…

    he could fight some…no doubt…but with such a limited record…and an in and out weight division….with half weights and multi ‘world titles’....
    He did real good at the box office….but with less than forty fights…compared with some guys with two hundred fights…or so…..
    ...he’ll have to be happy with his money

  13. dollarbond 11:59am, 09/16/2013

    Thanks Ted and EZ E

  14. The Krusher 12:50pm, 09/14/2013

    I like the idea of tough times breeding tough men. It explains Dempsey and a lot of others.

  15. Ted the Bull 07:41pm, 09/13/2013

    EZ E, I’m starting to come around to that kind of thinking. I am embracing the thought that hard times breed hard men.

  16. EZ E 07:28pm, 09/13/2013

    Anytime Uncle Teodoro, the pleasure was definitely mine. I’m thoroughly convinced that if the fighters of today had to endure the struggles the fights pre-1970s era most would’ve given up before too long. Do you believe that Guys like Floyd, Martinez, Ward, Cotto, Adamek… would fought 10-15 times a year mainly against top fighters? Robinson fought LaMotta TWICE within THREE weeks AND also defeated California Jackie Wilson (who was ranked by Ring Magazine at the time with a record was 47-4) in between those two LaMotta wars!!

  17. Ted the Bull 05:27pm, 09/13/2013

    EZ E , thanks for the amplification, bro

  18. EZ E 03:12pm, 09/13/2013

    DOLLARBOND, Allow me to interject, amigo. Armstrong held THREE different division titles at the same time, Featherweight, Lightweight & Welterweight, all in an era where there were NO Junior (130lb, 140lb, and no 154lb either)  titles, which equals FIVE titles SIMULTANEOUSLY in this era!! AND came within a hair of holding FOUR simultaneous title because his try at the Middleweight title was called a draw. The majority of the writers covering that fight thought Armstrong deserved the nod. Can you imagine someone holding all the belts from 126 to 160 pounds or from FEATHERWEIGHT to MIDDLEWEIGHT??!! Armstrong can easily deserve to be in the Top Three in ANYBODY’s list of ATGs!!

  19. Ted The Bull 11:30am, 09/13/2013

    Armstrong is based on my own historical analysis. Langford is based on that of other historians for whom I have a high regard. Ali and Jofre come from my original list and I just could not separate them

    Tough to do these, but much easier when you have a bunch of other lists in front of you as I have in my article.

  20. dollarbond 09:59am, 09/13/2013

    Great list.  Although I’m not familiar with all the names.  Why Armstrong, Langford and the tie with Ali?

  21. Ted the Bull 08:58am, 09/13/2013

    Not my thang Bill, but if pressed, here is what I would list subject to much further analysis and possible revision.

    1 Henry Armstrong
    2 Sugar Ray Robinson
    3 Sam Langford
    4 Jack Johnson
    5 Willie Pep
    6 Joe Louis
    7 Gene Tunney

    Sorry I didn’t answer sooner but I have not been getting reminders on follow-up comments. It’s being fixed. Cheers.
    8-9 Muhammad Ali. Eider Jofre –tie
    10 Monzon

  22. dollarbond 07:51am, 09/13/2013

    So Ted, are you ever going to list your top ten????

  23. Traveling Man 09:29am, 09/06/2013

    Just checking in from the Big Apple

  24. EZ E 05:07pm, 09/05/2013

    BODYSHOT/TUMBO Well, as for Camacho, his career can/should be divided in “pre-Rosario/post-Rosario” eras. It seemed like he ‘lost it’ after the Rosario fight. He was still a very good fighter but not great in any way, although he would shine now and then but not nearly enough. I consider Carlos Ortiz a Top Ten All Time LIGHTWEIGHT but not on my top ATG list. I have mad respect for fighters of the 8-10 division, ONE champ era, especially for those who ruled their divisions for multiple years, such as Ortiz, who reigned for 7 years. Growing up in a boxing oriented fighter when fighters fought among the best regularly. I never forget going to MSG to see my cousin Felix fight on the undercard. The main event pitted then slugging Middleweight contender Florentino Fernandez vs rough & tough Rocky Rivero, who had never touched the canvas in any 60 fights previous fights. Fernandez had Angelo Dundee in his corner, while Gil Clancy & Sid Martin were in Rivero’s. Anyway, these two pounded the daylights out of each other, round after round, for TEN rounds. I could clearly hear the shots from where I was sitting, everyone could, no matter from where you were sitting. Rivero won a close decision. I remember sneaking back into the dressing room after the fight besides Victor Valle and saw how bruised and lumpy and bruised Fernandez’ face was. The winner looked even worse. One month later we were back in the Garden. My uncle was working the corner of an undercard fighter (who lost) that night. The main even was the Rivero vs Fernandez rematch!! They already had licked their wounds & were back in the ring after that punishing savage fight the month before! They picked up where they left off, BOMBS AWAY, until the ringside Doctor decided that the cut over Rivero’s eye was too severe to continue. Rivero, who also had nasty cut under his chin and trunks drenched in blood, was nearly in tears when the fight was stopped. Two contenders fiercely battling each other twice within a bit more than a month. Unheard these days. That’s another reason “Old School” gets my exceptional respect. Some 60 days later they were at it AGAIN!! This time in San Juan, Puerto Rico. Another non-stop exciting ‘Pier Six” brawl ended with the fans on their feet!! THREE times in THREE months!! It took Gatti SIX months to rematch Ward and ONE year to end their trilogy, and the same as the Vazquez vs Marquez trilogy. Yes, their’s were quite impressive as well, no doubt. But these old warriors did it in THREE months. But it was nothing new, it happened often back then, ‘back in the day’. The game was different then. It took more back then to be a fighter. No extended breaks, no personal doctors, nutritional advisers, state of the art gyms & equipment, no pulling of fights as much as we see now for sprains, sore hands, twisted ankles, sore throat, minor tooth aches, cavities, acne, pimples.. LOL But I’m sure you get my point. Yeah, I respect for fighters of all eras but… my respect for “Old School” is and always will be exceptional!!

  25. Bodyshots 04:42pm, 09/05/2013

    MONTE, Leonard never compiled the necessary body of great ring performances v. great competition to merit top-10 all-time status. in fact, Leonard was being outboxed by Tommy before desperately turning powerpuncher to turn the tide in that bout. his win v. Benitez is among the most boring bouts in boxing history and you have to question the “greatness” of an opponent whose claim-to-fame is LOSING to a great fighter.  Leonard also lost to the smaller Duran before frustrating (not punching or boxing) him to inexplicably quit(?!). besides, Duran was little more than a gritty and gutsy competitor above 135lbs. afterwards, Hearns was robbed by the scorecards in the rematch v. Leonard and I still believe that Hagler was robbed by Leonard’s celebrity and promotional clout as well. combine that with Leonard’s multiple post-loss retirementS and a ring-resume of less than 40 fights, despite the extraordinary boxing talent Leonard displayed during his brief prime (and it was something special), uninterrupted longevity is a critical factor in assessing any fighter’s greatness. Leonard simply didn’t have it. we can agree to disagree . . . as long as we both agree that I’m Irrefutably Right . . . Peace.

  26. Monte Cox 03:56pm, 09/05/2013

    Ray Leonard deserves to be considered. First of all his ability, he could box with the best of them, had a great jab and powerful hook, went to the body and had superb lateral movement, he had a quality chin and heart which he proved in the Hearns first fight. He beat 4 legit ATG’s in Benitez, the youngest boxing champ in history and the youngest triple crown champion, Roberto Duran one of the 3 best lightweights ever, future multi division champion Thomas Hearns and one of the 5 or 6 best middleweights ever IMHO in Marvin Hagler (and most people whose opinions I respect called it for Leonard as did I, 7-5 for RL).

    Notice what the owner of a web site dedicated to Marvin Hagler wrote about that fight, the author rates Hagler as the # 1 all time middleweight, but look what he says about the Leonard fight:

    “Okay, all those things I wouldn’t say about the Leonard fight: now I’m gonna say them. For starters, Leonard tried everything he could to tilt the fight in his favor. First, he got Hagler to concede the champion’s rights to him. Leonard chose the ring, the gloves, everything but Hagler’s trunks, and probably tried to pick those. Then, knowing that not even he could last 15 rounds with Marvelous, he called in the WBC. With the WBA belt being taken away, and the IBF withholding recognition, it was about to become a non-title bout. But Hagler agreed to the WBC’s 12-round mandate, and Leonard let out another sigh of relief. Even at all these manufactured disadvantages, Hagler could’ve, SHOULD’VE, won. But, determined to beat Ray at his own game, Hagler threw away a third of the fight by boxing out of an orthodox stance and following Leonard around the 22-foot ring. Finally snapping out of his 12 minute coma, Hagler cut Leonard off starting in the fifth, and took control of the middle frames. I still swear that if Hagler had pressed the action from the start, he would’ve stopped Leonard during that ninth-round barrage. But the wear of 66 fights in 14 years started to show on Hagler, and the freshness of a three-and-a-half year layoff spurred Leonard in the championship frames, and Sugar Ray scored the upset by a split and still much-debated decision. I hate to do it, but I do score the fight for Leonard. 4 free rounds from Hagler and late surges in the 10th and 12th rounds are hard for even the Marvelous One to overcome. Why, Marvin, why didn’t you make him fight?” 

    Leonard won end of story. Anyone who can beat that kind of competition is an ATG. He finished # 2 in the IBRO poll at welterweight back in ‘05 and deservedly so and belongs on the list.

  27. EZ E 02:42pm, 09/05/2013

    hmmm…. BODYSHOTS does bring out a couple of valid points. I feel that Ray Leonard’s legacy benefited from the dynamic force of “Media Power”, making it easier to be ultimately superbly promoted & sold to the public. No reason to doubt his talent, without his great fistic gifts it wouldn’t have been possible, but over hyped nonetheless, but for a very good reason. Why? Well… with the exiting of “The King/Greatest” Muhammad Ali boxing world was in need of a charismatic “New King”, a ‘Hero’, a “Poster Boy”, much like Oscar was (another prime example of “Media Power”)  & like Floyd & Pacquiao are in this present generation. I tend to believe that his ‘retirements’ kept him from facing many top fighters roaming around in their primes. Ray fought only SEVEN times in the next TEN YEARS following the 1st Hearns fight!! SEVEN times, of which he won 5 (Old and fat Roberto Duran; an over hyped Bruce Finch who lost FIVE of his next SIX fights; Danny La Londe who was more hype than mite; and journeyman Kevin Howard who gave Ray serious second thoughts about coming back and sent him back into ‘retirement’ once again for another 3 years, and Hagler by way of a controversial. In Ray’s other two fights during that ten year stretch he faced Tommy Hearns in their long awaited rematch which he drew (lost??) and looked dreadfully awful in losing a lopsided decision to Terry Norris. Was Leonard a great talent fight? Yes, but…. Peace to all!!

  28. Bodyshots 01:59pm, 09/05/2013

    EZ, Gomez was an ATG (albeit shady) fighter along with a couple of other Boricua fighters such as Hector Camacho and Carlos Ortiz. Btw, “the Ortiz’s” (Carlos and Manuel) not “the Ramos’” were the ATG fighters i meant in earlier posts. anyway, i still maintain that a prime Hector had the best aggressive footwork of any fighter i’ve seen: always in range to punish, rarely in range to counter. unfortunately, still not enough to include him (or Gomez or either Ortiz) in any of the cited lists(?!). IMO, some presumed “experts” can learn a lot from dedicated and passionate fight-fans with no agenda other than elevating the integrity of the sport . . . Peace to EZ.

  29. EZ E 01:38pm, 09/05/2013

    MONTE COX, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment on Ezzard Charles, one of boxing’s most skillful & most under-appreciated fighters of all times. I heard HOF trainer Whitey Bimstein once say, “The only reason why Joey Maxim & Archie Moore were Lightheavy Champs was because Ezz didn’t want it”. Ezzard was already faded & shopworn by the time he fought Marciano, and even then some ringsiders thought Charles deserved at least a draw in their first fight. It was that close. Rocky won 8 of the 15 rounds on TWO of the three official scorecards, more proof of how close the battle was. Ray Arcel said that Ezzard would’ve had to have won at least NINE rounds to get a draw against the idolized Marciano. One of the reasons Charles was given the opportunity was because he had lost two of his previous 4 fights (one of the loses coming to young Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson) and was expected be a rather easy fight for Rocky, who according to the August 1954 Ring magazine covering the fight, was an 18-5 favorite. Editor Nate Fleischer. The fight took place in Yankee Stadium in front of 47,585 paying fans. The editor stated that Marciano won the fight in the final rounds, Ezzard’s age slowly began to show as Rocky was hard pressed to finish with a rush. Ezzard Charles was great, one of the our sport’s all time greats!

  30. Bodyshots 01:12pm, 09/05/2013

    no thanks MONTE. the past 53 years suits me fine. Boxing is my favorite sport NOT my job or profession. nonetheless, i do know why and when the “Bum of the Month” phrase was coined. do You? anyway, i stand by my original post, which you didn’t even remotely address: you won’t find the likes of the Ramos’, Saldivar (do You even know who they are?), Sanchez, Zarate, the Great Julio Cesar Chavez, Gomez, “Finito”, or Juan Manuel Marquez “The Greater” on ANY(!?) of the top-10 lists included in this article, which betrays a glaring lack of appreciation for the entire pantheon of great fighters and/or an intentional exclusion of anything other than establishment fighters that presumed “experts” continue to recite by rote, i.e., can there possibly anything left that we haven’t read about Pep, Ali, Louis, Robinson, Duran, and Leonard already? Btw, you cite that Sanchez’s career wasn’t long enough to judge but Leonard couldn’t even reach 40 pro-bouts without multiple losses and post-loss retirements. what he did benefit from was a popular media spotlight, which in typical American fashion becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, i.e., the networks claim he’s the greatest therefore he must be the greatest(!?). no need for media-hype to appreciate the greatness of the fighters i’ve mentioned and were excluded in EVERY ONE OF THE “TOP-10 LISTS cited in his article. at some point, any informed fight-fan has to wonder about the hidden agenda or sheer ignorance behind these omissions. it’s called critical thinking and a necessary skill to sort through the hype and figure out the truth (however unpopular) about my favorite sport.

  31. EZ E 08:21am, 09/05/2013

    BODYSHOT/TUMBO Yes, without a doubt, the NEUTRAL ref, Britain’s best at the time, Harry Gibbs, lost control of the encounter. Gomez was also known for his “by any means necessary” tactics every so often. Incidentally, Gomez was a great fighter himself. His record 17 straight KNOCKOUT defense victories speaks much of his greatness. SEVENTEEN!! A record that none of boxing’s most fearsome punchers have come close to breaking. During that stretch his victims included past and future champs, Lupe Pintor, Leo Cruz, Royal Kobayashi, Juan “Kid” Mesa besides the great Zarate, No one can say that his victims we all 2nd rate opposition.  During that record streak his adversaries included Roberto Rubaldino (52-5) Juan Antonio Rivera (57-8) Nicky Perez (40-1) Ruben Valdez (36-3)  undefeated Eddie Holmes while taking the title from an exceptionally good & unappreciated Dong-Kim Yum (50-2) who is currently ranked within the Top Five among Korea’s all time best. Rivera had only suffered two inside the distance losses (both on cuts) in 65 fights before being ko’d by Gomez twice. “Bazooka” Gomez was a THREE division champ during an era when there was only TWO sanctioning bodies. I’ll admit that his decision over Rocky Lockridge was questionable but past great like Joe Louis, Ray Robinson, Chavez, Jose Luis Ramirez, Camacho, Eusebio Pedroza, De la Hoya, Paul Williams.. have also received the benefit of one or two themselves. Fouls? Well, fighters like Hopkins with his roughhouse/illegal head first tactics, Holyfield also but not as flagrant.  Chavez has landed more low blows than anyone I remember. Refs seem to be a bit intimidated or prefer to “overlook” these issues when it comes to the more popular fighters, perhaps not wanting to risk losing more title officiating opportunities themselves. Not just any ‘GOOD’ fighter can amass these accomplishments, especially 17 straight title defense KOs to boot. Ya gotta be a GREAT!! Paz to BODYSHOT/TUMBO como siempre. peace to all.

  32. dollarbond 05:31am, 09/05/2013

    Give me your next ATG 5

  33. Monte Cox 06:33pm, 09/04/2013

    To Eric: Charles was at his peak at middleweight though not at 180’ish when he fought Marciano. Before losing the title to Jersey Joe Walcott he was 73-5-1. One of those losses was a controversial split decision that most thought he won against Elmer Ray, so he was effectively 74-4-1 in the ring. Further Ezzard Charles avenged every single one of those losses, with about 80 pro fights he had beaten every man he faced at least once. Just look at the guys he fought. He was 3-0 against Archie Moore, 2-0 against Charley Burley, 3-0 against Joey Maxim and 4-1 against Jimmy Bivins in his career.

    To Bodyshots: Try to learn something about fighters who fought before 1980. To say that JC Chavez is better than “Louis, Charles, and Duran” is ignorant. Further Duran fought and beat better competition and so did Charles, one can argue Louis competition but he was a better boxer and puncher than Chavez and his record just as impressive, 60-1 (51 ko’s) peak record, with 25 successful title defenses). If you don’t know that then you don’t know that you don’t know.

    As far as Ricardo Lopez if he was so great then why didnt he fight for the 112 pound title? Instead he fought for something called the “minimumweight title” and “light-flyweight”. Jimmy Wilde weighed the same as Lopez and had a record of 134-1-1 (99 ko’s) and fought against legit Flyweights and even heavier fighters such as bantamweights and beat them. Lopez is over rated.

    While I consider Wilfredo Gomez the greatest 122 pound champion ever and Sal Sanchez his superior at 126 I think they fall short a few of the other guys on the list. Sanchez wasnt around long enough to really fully judge him, he would have gotten better no doubt but he was only 22 when he died so we will never know.

    I think very highly of Pacquiao but his winning titles in 8 divisions is somewhat cheapened, as are all fighters of the current era by the fact that there are so many damn organizations and titles. Its not hard to win a “championship” when there are so many “champions”.

  34. Your Name 05:23pm, 09/04/2013

    “ won’t find the likes of the Ramos’, Saldivar, Sanchez, Zarate, Chavez, Gomez, “Finito”, or Jose Luis Ramirez on ANY of the establishment top-10 lists included in this article. a testament to the lingering and intentional ignorance that still seeks to determine the agenda of contemporary Boxing.”

    No bias there whatsoever. Pure objectivity probably fueled by Tecate’s and Tequila, not to mention a dislike for anything “gringo.” He cited 8 plus JMM and “Canelo” gives him his magic 10.Wow, he made it. Move aside SRR. You are being replaced.

  35. Bodyshots 04:34pm, 09/04/2013

    Btw, Juan Manuel Marquez “The Greater” is also a glaring omission from every east-coast list. Marquez is the author of one of the greatest comebacks in history (Marquez v. Pacquiao* I) and the #1 KO in Boxing History (Marquez v. Pacquiao IV). a win over the undefeated Bradley will solidify his welter creds and enable him to retire as one of the top-10 greatest fighters of the millenium.

  36. Bodyshots 04:12pm, 09/04/2013

    “. . . sorry if I took up too much of your time” are you kidding? EZ, you don’t post nearly enough. i’ve actually wondered out loud to my lady that “i hope that EZ’s all-right(?). haven’t read his posts in a long time and they’re the only one’s i look forward to reading”. as a fight-fan, i personally find your experiences and personal anecdotes to be educational and inspiring and your showmanship is impeccable, i.e., you always leave me wanting more. anyway, Gomez’s win over Zarate was a great victory but it was also among the most poorly reffed bouts that i can think of. it was a “mugging” in the foulest pugilistic sense of the term. not even a single warning for hitting after the bell or after Zarate was down(?!). you can see that Carlos was genuinely blindsided by not only Gomez’s ferocity but incredulous at the ref’s lack of control of the bout. there was nothing gentlemanly about that bout. i consider Sanchez’s 15th-round surge to KO Azumah the final ATG benchmark of his all-too-brief career. snatching victory from the jaws of defeat (like Gomez v. Pintor) is a trademark of the greatest fighters and Sanchez achieved it. Btw, Sanchez’s defeat of the beloved Lopez IS what put him on the map for west-coast fight-fans. Castillo proved that it was no fluke. “Chava” was for real. otherwise, by then even a teen like myself had learned not too wait for the establishment “experts” to give west-coast fighters their due. in fact, you won’t find the likes of the Ramos’, Saldivar, Sanchez, Zarate, Chavez, Gomez, “Finito”, or Jose Luis Ramirez on ANY of the establishment top-10 lists included in this article. a testament to the lingering and intentional ignorance that still seeks to determine the agenda of contemporary Boxing. talk about foul “vibes”. fortunately, i don’t “know my place” or pay attention to presumed “experts” (i.e., shills). conversely, it’s always a sincere pleasure to learn from an expert like yourself, carnal. you might be the one excuse for me to visit this site more often, which is pretty informative and responsible resource overall. a true expert like yourself fits right in . . . Paz and Enduring Respeto for EZ E.

  37. Eric Jorgensen 02:35pm, 09/04/2013

    Charles and Marciano were pretty close to the same size.  I take it you guys reckon that,  with 5-10 more pounds on him, Charles wins those fights?  I don’t think so.

    I agree Charles was a great fighter and I also agree he was under-rated for a long time there, but I respectfully submit that the pendulem has now swung a little too far in the other direction.

  38. EZ E 02:25pm, 09/04/2013

    BODYSHOTS/TUMBO Orale! Yes, Chavez did accomplish more that many on the list we see in this article. I look at things in various way, especially the fighters of the 17 weight division/4 champs per in contrast to the 8-10 division/1or 2 champs per era fighters. Chavez is Mexico’s top fighter. After he won his first title, at Jr. lightweight, the list of opponents he faced is truly awesome. I have NO problems having him in anyone’s list, including mine. Many older greats didn’t have the “Great Over-Promotional Media Hype” advantages of today. Chavez earned his stripes in the ring, not through the media. Sanchez is another interesting figure but his legacy is a bit OVER-blown due to his sudden & unfortunate death. Yes, he defeated Gomez but is wasn’t the blowout most remember. Go back and watch it objectively, especially in the rounds after that frightful initial round. Actually, Sanchez was ahead on two cards by 2 point and by only 1 point at the end. But the battering he put on Wilfredo’s face was grotesque to say the least. Yes, Gomez had under estimated Sanchez, was overweight and other rumors are his fault. He finally gassed, with the help of Salva’s artillery. It was Mexico’s GREATEST boxing victory, still is. Only a Canelo win over Floyd will surpass it. Gomez had upset & mowed down their previous national hero, Carlos Zarate, then considered boxing’s TOP & and MOST FEARED KO ARTIST. How should we rated his win over a then 13 fight last minute sub Azumah Nelson, who was ahead one one scorecard entering the 15th round? Or his MAJORITY decision over unknown Pat Ford? It wasn’t his win over TV darling Danny Lopez the “made” him, it was his win over Gomez, who was jumping up in weight class, that catapulted him into into prominence. I remember Gomez and his co-manger telling me that Danny Lopez had previously agreed and then puled out of negotiations of a Gomez fight. Personally, I honestly believe that Gomez would’ve ko’d the leaky defensed Lopez., much like Carlos Zarate. Danny went on face Sanchez instead. He also made the same mistake of under-estimating Sanchez. Never under-estimate greatness. Lightweight Duran? Well, he did defeat fighters that probably reigned in this era as well, Besides Esteban Dejesus & Buchanan, his victims included Edwin Viruet, one of boxing’s purest boxers of that era. There was Ray Lampkin. The only Lightweights a merit Julio defeated was at 135lb were Jose Luis Ramirez and Chapo Rosario. But Julio was awesome at 130Lbs and 140Lb as well, so your point is well taken nonetheless. Duran moved up in weight mainly due to his unwillingness to sacrifice to make weight and out-of-control eating habits he developed. It was amazing how chubby he looked/was when he fought guys like Hagler and Barkley, much heavier than the Duran I had the privilege of running, sparring and training with. Maybe I’m being a bit biased. LOL!!! Anyway carnalito, sorry if I took up too much of your time. And yes, I have the same e-address. Paz to TUMBO/BODYSHOT!! Al’rrato!!

  39. Ted 01:59pm, 09/04/2013

    Many thanks for your post ladies and gents. My wife and I are off to NYC for several days one of which will be to attend the Ring 10 Annual Banquet in Throggs Neck in the Bronx with Harold Lederman as the MC. Should be a fun trip and I plan to stay away from the laptop and posting.

    Prediction: Arreola by earl KO over Mitchell.

  40. Your Name 01:07pm, 09/04/2013

    “10. As for Number 10, a number of possibilities emerge. Great fighters like Roy Jones Jr., Aaron Pryor, Marvelous Marvin Hagler, Archie Moore, Salvador Sanchez, and Julio Cesar Chavez Sr. could fill the slot, but if forced to pick just one man who fought at the very highest level of competition, it would be difficult not to select the great “Cincinnati Cobra,” Ezzard Mack Charles.”

  41. Ted 01:03pm, 09/04/2013

    “IMO, guys like Louis, Charles, and Duran are sentimental favorites but their overall competition doesn’t compare to the likes of Chavez”

    The post is so mind numbing that I thought maybe Bodyshots was kidding, but it appears he means it. No one—and I mean no one—fought tougher opposition than Ezzard Charles. No Tijuana cabdrivers for the. And when Chavez quit on his stool, he whined like a baby. True ATG’s   go down on their shield.
    I could have replaced Charles with Sanchez, Jones, Finiito, Whittaker, Hagler, etc., but I went with Ezzard. and I stand firmly behind that pick.

    Then Shots goes on to call Duran a sentimental favorite—along with the truly legendary Joe Louis, Huh?

    What I want to see is Bodyshots’s best 10 since 1945—which most likely will consist of ten amigos from South of the Border. Don’t get me wrong, I love Mexican fighters, but not to the point where my objectivity is shattered like an bottle of Mescal will shatter your head.

    Comments like “East coast gringos” detracts from Shot’s credibility and gives off bad vibrations.

  42. Bodyshots 12:37pm, 09/04/2013

    Q-Vo EZ E. it’s always a sincere pleasure to learn from a true expert like yourself. my main gripe about this list (and virtually every other submitted by notoriously east-coast-biased “experts”) is not that it doesn’t include Saldivar, Sanchez, and Chavez but that it excludes every one of them (after thought doesn’t count). IMO, Sanchez accomplished more at feather than Duran did at lightweight. i struggle to identify more than a single great Buchanan (all-time may even be debateable but not to my older carnal) among his list of lightweight wins and that is truly the only division in which Duran demonstrated breakaway greatness. he was little more than a gritty, gutsy, and even inspiring contender at welter and above. including highlights and lowlights and there is still no credible excuse for “No Mas”. Hell(?!), even Ortiz experiences multiple KDs or concedes a flush-shot to bail out of a fight he no longer wants to win. IMO, guys like Louis, Charles, and Duran are sentimental favorites but their overall competition doesn’t compare to the likes of Chavez. he ceaselessly Fought Them All and stubbornly rejected defeat even when it did happen. Saldivar was my jefito’s favorite and i can recall him insisting that he would’ve defeated Sanchez back in the day. i figured it was generational until I did the research and watched the video and he was indeed a left-hooking menace. still don’t think he defeats a ring-master like Sanchez but he would’ve given him Hell. Btw, Castillo, a steamrolling Gomez, “LiL Red”, and Azumah “The Student” Nelson are hardly victories that can be diminished and they were dominant wins over emerging and established greats who rarely if ever lost again in the same fashion. IMO, any list that doesn’t include Sanchez or Chavez is incomplete, at best . . . Peace to EZ E. Btw, you still at the same e-directa? Firme. you’ll never have to worry about me forwarding it to anyone without at least a heads-up. i don’t do people dirty like that . . . Alrato!

  43. nicolas 12:04pm, 09/04/2013

    BIB; I have to take issue with you regarding your complaint about not enough non American fighters being on these top ten lists. I even wonder if you were showing some humor with your big words of UN-BIASED and IMPARTIAL. I have a habit of when I divide eras into thirty year periods since the John L Sullivan James Corbett fight of 1892. I would agree that since 82, Pacquiao and Chavez deserve to be in that top ten, and I would put in as well Joe Calzaghe. Klitschko’s while they are in my top 20 all time heavyweights, I realize that they have a weight advantage often over 20 pounds against the other heavyweights they do fight, which is why I don’t even put Lennox Lewis in this list, though I do have him as my number two heavyweight of all time. When I think pound for pound, I have Tyson and Holyfield ahead of Lewis, though not at heavyweight. 53-82, I have four non American fighters in that list, Monzon, Napoles, Duran, Jofre. Before 1922, the only two non Americans I can think of are Fitzsimmons and Langford. 1923 to 52 though, who would you even have in a top ten list who is not an American. Many might have Marcel Cerdan.

  44. Ted 11:28am, 09/04/2013

    As usual, Bodyshots does his seagull bit. He drops his load, I answer with respect, and he flies back to ESB without a response..

  45. nicolas 11:12am, 09/04/2013

    While Ricardo Lopez is certainly the greatest mini-flyweight of all time, top ten since 1945, or even top ten pound for pound in the decade he fought is for me an overstretch. Why. First, the competition in that division is not so deep. rememember that at o ne time, there was no such division, nor the division that is above that one now, which he did finally win one of the belts. Look at a fighter like Pascual Perez, who was flyweight champion for years, but actually fought at what would now be the light flyweight division of 108 I believe, and is certainly more deserving of being in a top ten pound for pound than Lopez. Had Lopez gone up in weight, and let say dominated the Flyweight division like he did the mini-flyweight division, perhaps a case could be made.

  46. EZ E 10:29am, 09/04/2013

    BODYSHOTS, I forgot to add that I grew up a Saldivar fan. Suffered gravely at his loss to Shibata, although I understood that his best days were past him. Maybe he doesn’t rank among the Top Ten, but great all the same. As for Finito or Chavez deserving that honor, well, who can argue? But I guess the same holds true for a few other 50s and 60s greats that also can be equally included but usually aren’t. Anytime list such as these are made, controversy becomes naturally predictable.

  47. EZ E 08:14am, 09/04/2013

    BODYSHOTS, as for Chavez & Finito, I feel that the ever popular, media exposed Chavez accomplished more but the lesser glamourized Finito was far more dominant. As for ‘Chava’ Sanchez, his career was too short, in my humble estimation. He defeated Gomez, but Gomez actually accomplished more in his career. How well/dominant would’ve Sanchez been beyond age 23? NO one knows. Others have started just as well and even better but were finished or rather mediocre still in their twenties. He surely was great while he lasted, too bad he left us too soon. It’s a bit like Edwin Valero. How far would’ve this rather crude Bomber gone?

  48. tED 04:40am, 09/04/2013

    Thanks CG

    Bodyshots, Louis was from Detroit, Ali from Kentucky, Jofre from Brazil, Duran from Panama, Monzon from Argentina, Charles from Ohio.

    Sanchez and Chavez are from Mexico.

    Who from the West Coast did I ignore?

  49. Ted 04:34am, 09/04/2013

    “...putting ray leonard in the top ten since 1945… an insult to Archie Moore…and a bunch more ‘rose coloured glasses’ , Ted…..he lost his match with Hagler”

    SRL’s persona is one thing. The way he performed in the ring is another. They have to be separated. Just like Monzon. Wife beater and strangler outside the ring, but legal killer inside.

    Some day, I will do something on SRL vs Hagler and explain in great detail why I think Ray won easily, but that’s for another day.

  50. Ted 04:30am, 09/04/2013

    Angel and Audley, always nice to hear from my fellow-power lifters.

  51. ted 04:29am, 09/04/2013


  52. Ted 04:23am, 09/04/2013

    Bodyshots aka Te Tumbo , I mention both Chavez (the whiner) and Sanchez (the legend) in the part about number 10, but I realize that your attention span ran out and you “failed ” to get there.

  53. EZ E 04:05am, 09/04/2013

    BTW, By “Teddy” I wasn’t referring to ‘Teddy Atlas’, it was UNCLE TEDDY SARES’ list which I was actually referring to.

  54. EZ E 03:57am, 09/04/2013

    There’s really no way to compile a PERFECT list such as these. This one is one of the very best I’ve seen. Maybe I would juggled the order a bit, maybe excluded one or possibly two of those on Teddy’s list, but I can find nothing wrong either. Yes, I probably would included Archie Moore and excluded ahhhhh… WHO?? Monzon is oftenly overlooked, so is Ezzard Charles. I do have issues with Ray Leonard & Willie Pep. Not saying that they don’t belong, by no means. Sometimes I feel that Leonard didn’t fight often enough among other things. Pep? Well, the suspicion of the way he probably/possibly/might’ve quit in one (or two??) encounters vs Saddler. And.. the accusations of “taking a dive”, the fight vs Lulu Perez being one prime example. Does he belong?? Yes, I believe he does, so does Archie Moore and probably Ricardo Lopez on anyone’s 1945+ era list. But I repeat, all things considered, Teddy’s was a GREAT list.

  55. Audley 03:03am, 09/04/2013

    Growing up in Connecticut whenever the subject of boxing came up in my family, Willie Pep’s name was always one of the first mentioned. He certainly deserved to be on the list. Top ten lists in any genre are always tough to compile and selections are always up for discussion. I agree any list should include Pep, Ali, Louis, and both Sugar Rays.

  56. Angel 02:28am, 09/04/2013

    Insightful and informational.  A great read.  Thanks, Ted.

  57. Clarence George 02:13am, 09/04/2013

    Excuse me, Beaujack, but you missed my post of September 1, where I wrote:

    “What do you think of Ike Williams and Beau Jack?  At least one (perhaps both) would have wound up on my own list, maybe instead of Leonard.”

    Ted answered shortly thereafter:

    “CG, I just don’t know enough about Beau but Ike was fantastic.”

  58. bikermike 09:52pm, 09/03/2013

    What a hungarian dog fuk that ‘AID’s’ thing was..

    Morrison…THE DUKE’ in peace…..our prayers and sympathies to Tommy’s family and friends

  59. bikermike 09:22pm, 09/03/2013

    finally did enough exercise…..added a handfull of mothballs into the gas tank…...and went to my home town ...a hundred miles away….got sued for patrimony things…but my so called son…cant drink worth a hole in the window..

    N’ere the less..putting ray leonard in the top ten since 1945… an insult to Archie Moore…and a bunch more
    ‘rose coloured glasses’ , Ted…..he lost his match with Hagler

  60. beaujack 09:13pm, 09/03/2013

    I have been watching fights ringside from the time I first saw my first pro main event at St. Nick’s arena in the early 1940s, between a rising star Beau Jack against Tough Terry Young who introduced his friend Rocky Graziano to the pro ranks…So reading all these interesting posts about the 10 greatest fighters since 1945, I am surprised that not ONCE was the name Ike Williams mentioned !.. Ike Williams uncuffed was the best lightweight I ever saw…To beat the likes of Bob Montgomery, Beau Jack, Freddie Dawson, Sammy Angott, Johnny Bratton, proved his greatness at 135 pounds…I saw Willie Pep in his prime and Sandy Saddler at MSG. Great fighters were they but not once have I read of a Pep or a Saddler challenging Ike Williams for the LW crown. So feared a hitter was he at 135…And we must remember Pep and Saddler fought lightweights…
    So I think Ike Williams belongs somewhere in the top 10 since 1945…

  61. Bodyshots 07:40pm, 09/03/2013

    . . . but before i’m given the heave-ho . . . Peace and Greetings to Don from Prov.

  62. Bodyshots 07:36pm, 09/03/2013

    another all-time list that reeks of east-coast bias and gringo sentimentality. otherwise, no list is complete without the likes of Saldivar, Sanchez, and Chavez Sr. neither leonard (no such thing as an ATG with less than 40 fights including losses and multiple post-loss “retirementS”) or Charles eclipse these truly ATG fighters. Btw, Monzon was a wife-beater and murderer, which should disqualify him from any respectable boxing list. that leaves three openings that would provide some semblance of balance and relevance to this list. i think i’ll check out now before my personal e-mail is once again forwarded to the moderator by the resident tattle-tale (aka “snitch” on the Cali coast).

  63. Ted 03:36pm, 09/03/2013

    L.L. Cool John, I’d have him in my top ten for sure. Just don’t know where to slot him but probably number 4 after SRR, Armstrong, and Langford.  This is not my forte but I’m also able to watch footage and read news accounts so I’m getting more comfortable with this old time stuff.

  64. John aka L.L. Cool John 03:25pm, 09/03/2013

    In my opinion, Jack Johnson should be on the top of all these lists. Here’s why: Consider America just after the turn of the century. With Jim Crow laws at the time, Johnson was extremely lucky just to get a shot at Tommy Burns. From 1889 to 1916 in Missouri alone, the NAACP reported 81 lynching’s! That’s not the deep south, either. Hell, Johnson was lucky to get out of the ring alive after the Jeffries fight. I can’t think of another fighter that overcame so many obstacles not related to boxing to achieve the success he did.  .

  65. ted 03:01pm, 09/03/2013

    I’ll pass. Kid

  66. kid vegas 12:24pm, 09/03/2013

    What would your all-time list look like, Ted, if you don’t mind my asking?

  67. Ted 09:56am, 09/03/2013

    EZ E, gracias AMIGO

  68. EZ E 08:04am, 09/03/2013

    UNCLE TEODORO, thanks for including Ezzard Charles, whom I’ve always considered one of the ATGs. In the era where would be “hard core fans” put too much emphesis on the number of loses and totally disregard the life, times, quality of opposition…. an so on.. this is a GREAT LIST!!

  69. Ted 06:25am, 09/03/2013

    No. Nothing on Tommy. My wife and I had breakfast with him years ago in Lantana, MA at a IBHOF fund raiser and he looked fit and healthy, but I knew something was wrong. Could just sense it. He was a very nice person and went out of his way to help Iran Barkley who himself was down on his luck. I still have a photo with Tommy that I prize. Like I said, he was genuine. Pure Americana from the Heartland.

    As for Duran vs. SRL, it’s a hair splitter.

  70. dollarbond 06:09am, 09/03/2013

    I really enjoyed this one and sent it to a lot of my friends.  vert thorough and well reserached, but I especially like the way you use quotes to give your points support.  However, I must disagree on Sugar ray leonard being higher than Duran.  Are you going to do anything on Tommy Morrison?

  71. Ted 04:38am, 09/03/2013

    Bob. of course it is, but I WILL defend my list.

  72. bob 09:42pm, 09/02/2013

    ok ted i got your point.but i still reserve my opinion regarding that ok with you?

  73. Ted 08:49pm, 09/02/2013

    Bib, I’m not sure Tyson makes my top 90.

    The others you mentioned are STILL fighting. And I mentioned Chavez as a possible number 10.

    But I do thank you for your post. Lists are all about engendering debate.

  74. Bib 07:07pm, 09/02/2013

    All these top-10 lists come from American commentators, websites, magazines, cable channels. None of them come from any source abroad, I mean from an IMPARTIAL and UNBIASED source.

    So, not surprisingly, some HUGE NAMES of boxing THAT SHOULD BE INCLUDED are not mentioned, simply because they are not american fighters. But actually, these people have better records/achievements than ALL the American boxers mentioned. Here are some:

    1.- The Klitschkos (weight-class dominance, KO percentage, no American ever competes with them)
    2.- Manny Pacquiao (only fighter ever to win belts in 8 different weight divisions)
    3.- Julio César Chavez: *Longest undefeated streak in boxing history, 13 years. His record was 89-0-1 *Most title-fight victories (31) *Most title fights (37) *Most successful consecutive defenses of world titles (27) *Most title defenses won by knockout (21, Tied with Joe Louis)

    But of course, none of these people are American. So they will never be top-ten for these biased commentators!

    To top it off, the MOST SPECTACULAR American boxer ever, Mike Tyson, is not even mentioned in the top 10! I’m sure he has lots of records of how own, but the bias against his personal life and the ear-biting issue vs. head-butter Holyfield caused him to be erased from the top 10 forever, only because of “political correctness” as if all his records never existed, that’s bias at its best!

  75. Ted 06:06pm, 09/02/2013

    But who is to decide when a prime occurs? Many had Duran done after his loss to Lang but he came back. After he slaughtered Moore and later beat Barkley, people were singing his praises, but then SRL beats him after Duran beats Barkley and all of a sudden, Duran is old and shot.

    This stuff is more subjective than most things and I simply tried to focus on records, style, chin, KO percentages, skill-sets, entire body of work, quality of opposition, and especially the era in which the boxers fought…

    If I have a flaw, it’s in body of work, but once again, do we judge Danny Williams on his win over Tyson or do we look at his horrendous total body of work—horrendous because of his long string of terrible performances?

    Anyone who thinks they have this stuff down cold needs a cold shower.

  76. CB 04:56pm, 09/02/2013

    Where is Ricardo “El Finito” Lopez? One of the best Mexican fighters of all time, Finito had an astonishing 11-year run as a champion, spanning two weight classes. The bulk of his work was at 105 lbs, where he made a staggering 22 title defenses, after which he captured a title at 108 lbs and defended it twice. He had good power and great offensive skills, showcasing strong technical form and a total mastery of his discipline,and he retired undefeated. As I said earlier;these lists are way too broad. You have to divide fighters by era and weight class. Also it is good to judge fighters in their prime although longevity has its place. For instance does anyone defeat Roy Jones Junior in his prime? I give Duran high props because he defeated Sugar Ray in his prime,unlike Hector Camacho,who won when they were both old.Roy Jones defeated James Toney(easy hall of famer) in his prime,and Bernard Hopkns.  So my argument is thus: 1.Divide fighters by era`s
    2.Divide fighters into weight classes.
    This way you are not leaving out fighters who belong like Pernell Whittaker, or El finito.
    Fighters Missing that should could easily be on these lists:
    1.Panama Brown
    2.Charlie Burley
    3.Wilfredo Gomez
    4.Eusebio Pedroza
    5.Antonio Cervantes
    6.Orlando Canizales
    7.Jack Johnson

    RIP to Tommy Morrisson

  77. Ted 03:54pm, 09/02/2013

    Much obliged Walter

  78. Ted 03:52pm, 09/02/2013

    Kid for God’s sakes. I just said that!!!!!!!! lmao!

  79. Walter Wojtowicz 03:07pm, 09/02/2013

    Ted,  Thanks for sharing the list.  I read through it when you posted.  Am always a little gun shy about talking shop when guys (like you) put together such thorough and comprehensive work.  I was looking at the other guys list and am always surprised when Pep isn’t included.  As for Jofre, that’s the great thing about you always learn something.  This type of list as well as the 100 man list recently put together is never 100% right nor never really wrong.  However, enormously impressive because Boxing as a sport offers so much in diversity with its participants.  I guess my top 10 list would be based on and composed from my insight, knowledge and exposure as a fan and participant moons ago. Much correct at least from my perspective and of course an expert like you puts the perspective in much larger, richer and more correct lenses.  So, thank you for this effort.  I have learned and had a lot of fun.

  80. kid vegas 01:58pm, 09/02/2013

    that last post from Eric about Spinks is bang on. Everyone remembers the Tyson KO, but the Jinx was a lot more than that. However, he did get at least one gift against Holmes.

  81. kid vegas 01:55pm, 09/02/2013

    Oh God, I hope the rumors about The Duke are just rumors!

  82. kid vegas 01:54pm, 09/02/2013

    Interesting. It looks like Roberto Duran vs. Sugar Ray Leonard has become the point of most disagreement.

  83. Ted 12:11pm, 09/02/2013

    Duran vs. SRL seems to be the hottest point of disagreement. It really should not be, however, since I have SRL by a hair. Here is my reasoning, in part:

    Benitez beats Duran. SRL beats Benitez.
    Hearns beats Duran. SRL beats and draws with Hearns.
    Hagler beats Duran, SRL beats Hagler.
    SRL beats Duran 2 out of 3. And the last one occurs right after Duran beats Barkley indicating that he is far from though..
    Both beat Adolfo Viruet by decision.
    Duran loses to Camacho twice. SRL loses to Camacho once. Both are at the end, but SRL is farther gone.
    Duran KO% = 59
    SRL KO% = 63
    I stand behind my pick as I believe the above coupled with SRL’s Olympic Gold offsets Duran’s longevity.

  84. Titusz 12:01pm, 09/02/2013

    The 1st: Calzaghe

  85. Monte Cox 09:40am, 09/02/2013

    To FrankInDallas I disagree completely. First of all you suggest that sportswriters were somehow dishonest because they wanted to sell newspapers which is unfair and likely not true. I have newspaper accounts from early 1900’s with round by round descriptions of the action in the ring. More importantly there is a lot of film before 1945:
    a) Joe Louis started boxing in 1934 and there are over 30 of his fights available on film not all are complete and many are highlights but its more than enough to judge him as a fighter.
    b) Guys like Sam Langford have several fights on film and the Joe Jeannette fight has surfaced only recently. One can view these films and break him down adequately enough to see how great he was. Add to that his ring record and ringside reports and one can understand how his fights went. There is more than enough information and film to judge Langford.
    c) Harry Greb has no fights on film that have surfaced as of 2013 but we do have lots of film of guys he beat such as Mike Gibbons, Tommy Gibbons, Tommy Loughran, Jimmy Slattery, Mickey Walker, Bill Brennan and Gene Tunney, all outstanding fighters whom Greb bested. One can see how good these fighters were and know that Greb defeated them. There are round by round descriptions of some of Greb’s biggest fights. You just can’t ignore his incredible record because you haven’t seen him. His record speaks for him.

  86. Ted 07:43am, 09/02/2013

    D35TR00 , thanks man. I saw him beat Tony Licata. He was a ramrod who kept on coming and gained strength as the fight progressed despite his nasty habit of smoking too much and not-so-nasty habit of fooling around with nasty jets set chicks.

    Not a poster boy for clean living to be sure.

  87. D35TR00 07:34am, 09/02/2013

    Great lists.  Can’t argue. I was never high in Carlos Monzon though.  I always thought Monzon relied too heavily on his straight right.  Nonetheless,  great lists.

  88. Ted 05:43am, 09/02/2013

    Thanks for your comments Peter and Tex.

  89. Ted 05:40am, 09/02/2013

    Balagtas , Kilt brothers and Manny are still boxing. Maybe if I did one from 1995 forward. I would be hard pressed not to include the Klits, but Manny’s recent trip to Mars gives me plenty of pause. His upcoming fight with Rios will tell a lot.

  90. benogon 04:45am, 09/02/2013

    Guys pls stop with the Manny crap. He was a lineal champ…that means true champ in 4 divisions only ok. Besides he got knocked out by a featherweight and a freaking lightweight. JMM albeit in a so called Welterweight fight. Besides he wouldn’t do a drug test to fight the best of his era which in my mind will forever tint his reputation. Even worse than the knockout losses. Manny is a great boxer but not even among the top 3 greatest in his era. 1) Floyd 2) Hopkins 3) W. Klitschko.

  91. Dranreb Datsboygym 03:51am, 09/02/2013

    BILL GALLO -  Americans boxing famous cartoonist and a member of New York Daily news has said before He died :  ” I have seen the fights of Sugar ray Robinson…I saw the fights of Muhammad Ali….the fights of Duran, Leonard, earns, and Mike Tyson and they are all great among greatest….but when i saw the Philippines Dynamo the great Storm of the Pacific…in my own eyes…He is the GREATEST of all fighter ever “.

  92. Peter Silkov 01:58am, 09/02/2013

    Nice top ten list Ted, personally I would have Duran higher, at about 5 or 6… I just think his longevity wipes the floor with Leonard.  He also never had any weight stipulations in his fights, unlike Leonard.  Duran would be a pound for pound great even if his career had ended at what he did at 135.  His performances against Hagler and Barkley at 160 just put him above so many of the others imo. These kind of lists are always open to different interpretations though, that’s one of their attractions I think. I’m surprised no one put Jack Dillon in their list, he had quite an amazing career but seems to get overlooked.  I would be interested to see your all time top ten regardless of whether you have seen them fight.

  93. nicolas 12:58am, 09/02/2013

    to Kid Vegas and Monte Cox: In regards to the Willie Pep Vs Sandy Sadler. Yes, Sadler did defeat Pep 3 out of 4 times, stopped him in fact three out of four times. However the Pep that Sadler fought was not the Pep in him prime. On has to really divide Peps career in two parts. The man before the horrific plane crash, and the man after. He suffered I guess very bad injuries, that many thought that he would never fight again. That he did come back many said was a miracle. But my understanding is that he was certainly not the same fighter. While I think that had Sadler fought Pep before the plane crash, he might have gotten one victory. Most would I think suggest that Pep would have won the other three fights.

  94. Balagtas 09:21pm, 09/01/2013

    Klitschko brothers should be part of it because no one in boxing history ever survive longer holding their championship belts like them. This is unbeatable records.
    Also Manny Pacquiao had a record that never been accomplished by any other boxer, that is why he should also be part of it.
    Klitschko and Pacquiao are undeniable be part of this all time P4P without bias.

  95. kid vegas 08:05pm, 09/01/2013

    Monte Cox makes a very good post here. Saddler over Pep makes some sense to me.

  96. Tex Hassler 06:21pm, 09/01/2013

    Thanks Mr. Sares for including Ezzard Charles on your list. It was a wonderful for me drive through Cincinnati a few years ago and see the Blvd. named after Ezzard Charles.  He fough the very best and beat most of them. My dream fight would be Charles vs Gene Tunney. NO, I cannot pick a winner as both were great boxers.

  97. Ted 05:58pm, 09/01/2013

    bob, thanks for the clarification

  98. Ted 05:56pm, 09/01/2013


  99. CB 05:51pm, 09/01/2013

    These lists are great for promoting boxing. There are many fighters that I had never heard about at one time or another until, i read about them on some type of list. As a matter of fact, Charley Burley was one of them. My only issue is the time span considered is way too broad. I like to see comparisons of fighters in the same era or at least within 10 years. For instance Hagler,Hearns,Leonard, Duran,Camacho are near the same era. In another era James Toney,Roy Jones,Holyfield,Pernell Whitaker,Chavez. With the time covered being so broad, you miss truly great fighters(Ricardo “El Finito” Lopez anyone?) Where is Larry Holmes?Jack Johnson? Also it is hard to compare fighters of different generations,because things have changed so much. Floyd Patterson probably weighed around 190 as a heavyweight!; So comparing him with a Tyson or Foreman is crazy. You have to ask who was the best in a particular era at their weight class. So in my system, I don`t compare Roy Jones to Sugar Ray Robinson(Who has 200 fight careers anymore?) but I compare Roy to fighters in the 90`s and maybe 80`s and 2000`s.

  100. bob 05:48pm, 09/01/2013

    i surely understand dranreb,manny is not an AMERICAN.let them drown this so called expert boxing historian on their egoistic fantasy.but the whole world knows!

  101. Ted 05:09pm, 09/01/2013

    Dranreb Datsboygym ,  the BWAA may very well put the greatest PACMAN as the greatest among greats boxer fighter of All Time.

  102. Dranreb Datsboygym 04:59pm, 09/01/2013

    everyone has its own opinion….but to win 8TH DIVISIONs world title OUTSIDE of his OWN BACKYARD…is the greatest of all things happenings in World Wide Boxing ever since Boxing was introduced…how i wish the great PACMAN was naturally born an American citizen and im 100% so sure all BWAA, RING MAGAZINE, ESPN, SPORTS ILLUSTRATED and all American boxing Historian will surely put the great PACQUIAO as the greatest among greats boxer fighter of All Time…

  103. Ted 04:49pm, 09/01/2013

    Peter, I agree and Teddy convinced me. Teddy has studied the films of the late Jimmy Jacobs, one of the greatest all-around athletes in history, so he knows his shit and then some. Same with Tyson. They watched films every night up in the Catskills.

  104. peter 04:39pm, 09/01/2013

    Thank you for another great article! All of the “Top Ten Pound-for-Pound” lists I can agree with—except for Tracy Callis’s. ... Teddy Atlas seems a bit defensive upon including Gene Tunney in his top 10, but his rationale is unshakable and well thought out. (I think he’s been influenced by Cus D’Amato regarding Tunney.)

  105. Ted 04:22pm, 09/01/2013

    Thanks Krusher

  106. Ted 04:21pm, 09/01/2013

    Thanks FD!

  107. FrankinDallas 03:49pm, 09/01/2013

    I have one rule when viewing a Top Ten or Hundred or whatever list of boxers: if there aren’t any videos, or if you’ve never seen a boxer with your own eyes, then they guy shouldn’t be on your list or any other list.
    I’ve said this many times: the old boxing writers wrote to SELL NEWSPAPERS and since only the few in the arena actually could see the fight, then nobody could argue with what they wrote. I don’t care WHAT their record was…in those days EVERYBODY boxed or else they played baseball. Hell even a wimp like me would have had 10 or 20 fights on my record (all L by KO I’m sure).

    So..I like this list. Only post 1945 boxers. Nice one, Ted.

  108. The Krusher 03:01pm, 09/01/2013

    Guy in the upper right of the photo with the white hat on is one happy camper, but looks like he might be a vampire..

  109. The Krusher 02:48pm, 09/01/2013

    Wow. Solid stuff here.

  110. Ted 02:04pm, 09/01/2013

    Man. you guys are giving me a good workout here. Time to have some Mexican food. Back later for more exchanges.

  111. Ted 02:03pm, 09/01/2013

    Irish. like a lot of things, it’s mostly mental. Strength and execution are the key ingredients, but a mental outlook fueled by high energy (sometime a hard slap from a trainer and/or a sniff of ammonia). For me, I try to channel anger and rage before I lift.

    Many of the lifters will scream before they lift.

  112. Ted 01:59pm, 09/01/2013

    Dranreb Datsboygym, thank you for your post

  113. Ted 01:57pm, 09/01/2013

    Davor, de nada

  114. Ted 01:57pm, 09/01/2013

    Eric , I just think Charles was better than Spinks. But Spinks was very good. No doubt.

  115. Ted 01:54pm, 09/01/2013

    Yes, agree on Calzaghe.

  116. Ted 01:53pm, 09/01/2013

    I used 1945 because I began to see some of these guys fight in the Chicago Stadium and live on Television. I was born in 1937 and saw Bob Satterfield slaughter Art McWhorter at the Marigold Gardens in Chicago. I van barely remember it but I can just as I can remember my Kindergarten teacher, and some of the fights I got into in the early grade school classes.  That hooked me along with Anton Raadick fighting Marcel Cerdan at the Stadium and then fighting a bunch of tough hombres at the Rainbo Arena. I’d go with my dad who was a big boxing fan. It got into my blood. I boxed throughout the 50’s as an amateur in varying degrees of frequency moving up from PAL through CYO and Park Leagues and then AAU depending on my obligations as HS football player and a college baseball player. Had the best luck as a Light Heavy weight in 1958. Saw Louis fight Cesar Brion as well

    We had a small 9” TV that you could enlarge to 13” with a magnifier filled with olive oil and I saw more fights than Carter had pills. We would stand outside a furniture store called Morris B. Sachs and huddle around the freezing cold weather and watch the fights on a tiny Admiral TV and that’s how I lived my boxing history. I jus don’ feel comfortable writing about something I didn’t really have a feel for or something that was done before I was born, but that is now changing and I am now going to do far more historical articles starting with Lloyd Marshall and going backwards.

  117. Eric 01:45pm, 09/01/2013

    Djata Bumpus mentioned Michael Spinks, and since this list is from 1945 to present, Spinks probably would at least crack the top 20 IMO. Spinks ruled the light heavyweights at the tail end of that great late 70’s and early 80’s period. He beat Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Marvin Johnson, and Dwight Qawi, all ex-champs from that same period of light heavy monsters. He also beat fine contenders like Johnny Davis and Yaqui Lopez. Lopez could’ve been champion in most eras and came agonizingly close in losing to Saad Muhammad and Victor Galindez. I feel Lopez beat Galindez in their first fight. Spinks would go on and defeat an aging Larry Holmes to become the first light heavyweight to ever capture the heavyweight crown. And to this day, I’m still baffled at how Spinks knocked out the huge Gerry Cooney. Spinks only lost one professional fight and perhaps it is the way he lost that fight that makes many forget him on lists like this, that 90-something second demolition Spinks suffered at the hands of Mike Tyson is how many remember Michael Spinks. Like Bob Foster, Spinks will be more remembered for his loss(es) to a dominant heavyweight king(s) than his outstanding reign at his natural weight class.

  118. Irish Frankie Crawford Beat Saijo aka Gimpel 01:43pm, 09/01/2013

    Ted Sares-I saw the Youtube video and I’m very impressed….it’s all relative…I’ve often pondered who the greater athletes truly were….World Champions in any sport for that matter, who don’t have the power to get up out of that rocking chair in the present day or unheralded seniors with the mental and physical strength to compete in, for example power lifting competitions, win or lose.

  119. Davor 01:42pm, 09/01/2013

    As an argentine and a latino, i want to say thanks to you for this ranking. Is very common to se Monzon and Duran not being appreciated as they should.

  120. Matt McGrain 01:39pm, 09/01/2013

    Calzaghe is nowhere near for me.  I think you can call him a great fighter, but there are a lot of guys ahead of him for me: Hagler, Chavez, Griffith, Napoles, Arguello, Spinks, Hearns, Mayweather,  Pacquiao, Hopkins, Holyfield, Sanchez, Gomez, Saldivar, Marciano, Manuel Ortiz, Zarate, Basilio, Oscar, Nelson, McCallum, Frazier, Lennox Lewis, Bob Foster, Chang…I think i’d rank him above Lopez though, what about you guys, Lopez or Calzaghe?

  121. Dranreb Datsboygym 01:38pm, 09/01/2013

    this is the most funny list of top ten pound for pound only made by ego maniac whitey boy veterans of WW2…yet still alive only to put mistakes and stain for what is trully right in boxing….PACQUIAO is the only Human Being on this planet earth that captures what americans, latin americas, europeans, africans cannot do….PACQUIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO….is the first ever 8th wonders of Boxing…winning 10 world championships in 8TH different Divisions…and he took it OUTSIDE of his own BACKYARD….Robinson first ever fight outside of his country was disgrace coz he was badly beaten by englishman Randy Turpin…ALI got only 1 division….Armstrong got 2, Leonard got 5…Duran got 4 Divisions….but the most ever great basis of criteria should be as to who is the most greatest entertainer to watch….and no body can say that PACQUIAO isnt in the very first list of it…i inderstand…American pride was shut the moment PACQUIAO built his world wide phenumenom by beating the legends Divisions by Divisions that has no other great or legends in the past did it…and here again the EGO LOVER MANIAC wannabe americans historian…not even mentioning PACMAN while in reality no human being can catapult the kind of records he has done in world wide BOXING!!!! but in the real World…i knew it…i strongly believed…PACQUIAO is the greatest Fighter ever!!! we may have our own biased opinion…but only Records shows…and the kind of ELECTRIFYING Action the moment PACQUIAO fight!!! the whole world STOPs!!!

  122. Ted 01:34pm, 09/01/2013

    I didn’t include Jones because I’m not certain he is quite done yet—no pun intended. But a prime Roy would be very close to any list. He just needs to stop ruining his legacy like Matthew Franklin did. Getting stopped by Green after beating Lacey does very little for his body of work. On the other hand, beating over 20 fighters who held some kind of world title offsets just about anything. 

    I am surprised no one said anything about Calzaghe.

  123. Clarence George 01:31pm, 09/01/2013

    Well, she was a bit of tenderloin (and here we go; took longer than usual).

    Judy on “Laugh-In”:

  124. Matt McGrain 01:30pm, 09/01/2013

    Well for me in the main it’s about Duran’s victory over Leonard.  When they met, Leonard was one of the best welters in history…full stop.  Maybe the second best.  Some say the best, and I have a small amount of sympathy for that.  That may be the single best win in boxing.  It’s outrageous.  How do you beat one of the two or three best welters in history out of the lightweight division?  That win kind of settles what I see as a narrow argument between their respective great careers.
    Why 45 as the cut off point, particularly?

  125. Ted 01:18pm, 09/01/2013

    Yes, Matt. I think you and I are very close on this. I can see Charles over Monzon, but that Loooooong win streak was very impressive. Why Duran over SRL, however?

  126. Ted 01:16pm, 09/01/2013

    Carne is meat

  127. Clarence George 01:13pm, 09/01/2013

    What I remember most of Boston’s nightlife (from the early ‘80s) was Top of the Hub.  I took a girl there who looked like a blonde Judy Carne and we had shrimp.

  128. Matt McGrain 01:12pm, 09/01/2013

    Always good for a chat this stuff.
    Using the 1945 rules, i’d argue the guys who are an absolute LOCK are Robinson, Charles, Ali, Louis, Duran and Pep; you have all those guys on your list, so i’m a happy boy basically - the rest is mostly hair-splitting.
    The final four on my list would be drawn from Leonard, Whitaker, Saddler, Roy Jones, Monzon and Jofre.  I would lean towards naming Leonard the first amongst these.
    So the only areas we would disagree on are Leonard’s ranking above Duran (not something i can buy) and Monzon above Charles (and some of the others).

  129. Larry Link 01:04pm, 09/01/2013

    I know a lot of guys are gonna complain about me having Gene Tunney on there, but how can you complain when a guy only lost one out of 77 fights, and you know Harry Greb belongs on there….well he beat Harry Greb three out of four—anyone who loses one out of 77 with those great fighters I gotta put ‘em.”—Teddy Atlas

  130. Ted 01:02pm, 09/01/2013

    I loved the 70’s. I really did. All of the angst of the 60’s became assimilated and then people went wild. Studio 54 was visited by me on more than one occasion. I saw stuff going on in there that would make Marylyn Chambers blush.

    I was always a good dancer and that had its rewards. How do you spell Le Freak? Damm, when Nard Taylor did his thing on that base guitar and he Nile Rodgers did Good Times (Say What), it just didn’t get any better than that. Sounds corny, but I loved it.

    Chicago could not hold a stick to NYC and I was from Chicago. Boston, however, is a different story.

  131. Clarence George 12:47pm, 09/01/2013

    Eric:  While I do indeed rank Marciano among the top five heavyweights of all time (I have him at number four), I don’t have him as one of my top 10 pound-for-pounders.  But don’t forget that Ted’s list is not of all time, but only from 1945.  Rocky could indeed be on such a list, which is not to say that he has to be.  By the way, disagree with you about Tunney.  Love him dearly, but Dempsey was much more impressive, despite the two losses.

    Mike Silver:  Excellent point about Olson—he is ridiculously underrated, though I don’t think he would come out on top against Monzon.  Like you, however, I almost always think the old-timers will beat the new breed.

    Ted:  Come now!  We all know that disco wasn’t around in the 1870s.  Sorry!  Couldn’t resist.  Your story reminded me of how as a teen I would go to discos (only because that’s what the ladies wanted, and they are not to be denied), including the Caligulan Studio 54.  I remember the Tic Tac, which had been right next door to notorious pick-up joint Maxwell’s Plum.  In return for the cover charge, you got a plastic chip that entitled you to a free drink.  One night, the guy at the door was so drunk (or perhaps was seeking to impress the girls, one of whom was the gorgeous Victoria Preminger) that he gave us about 50!  I had a couple left at night’s end, and kept them for years.  The ‘70s—awful, and yet…

  132. Ted 12:24pm, 09/01/2013


  133. Eric 12:17pm, 09/01/2013

    Tunney gets no respect. He’s nearly always ranked behind Dempsey on heavyweight lists, and it seems like some even feel Tunney even ranks behind the Manassa Mauler on the p4p lists. The all-time p4p title probably is a two horse race between Robinson & Armstrong, but I wouldn’t have the freakish punching Fitzsimmons that far behind. I would rank Tunney as a better p4p fighter than Dempsey. I might even rank Tunney ahead of Charles as the greatest light heavyweight. P4p between Charles and Tunney is a very close call.

  134. Ted 12:00pm, 09/01/2013

    Dan Adams, always great to hear from my buddy down in Jackson, NJ, which has its own rich history, if not a dark one. Lol

    There, I hope I didn’t miss anyone because it was not my intent.

  135. Ted 11:58am, 09/01/2013

    Irish I have a YouTube of me warming up on the deadlift on the way to 200 pounds. If you send me your email, I will send it to you, but I will not post in here, hahaha

  136. Ted 11:56am, 09/01/2013

    CG, I will be in NYC next weekend so I may enlist your services as a bouncer. However, back when I was a Disco Duck and worked in the City in the 70’s I used to say about walking through Central Park, it’s me the muggers have to be scared of. :)

  137. Ted 11:53am, 09/01/2013

    Agree, Eric. I dearly love Marciano but I have to strip my self of subjectivity and personal likes. He is on my top ten heavyweights but not on this one.

  138. Ted 11:51am, 09/01/2013

    Herr Schmidt, danka gut freund! These lists are very difficult to do. Any list is because as soon as you post one, you become a target for disagreement, but the juice is in the action.

    I probably should have mentioned Whittaker as a possible Number 10.

  139. Ted 11:48am, 09/01/2013

    Djata Bumpus :twisted: :)

  140. Ted 11:47am, 09/01/2013

    Mohummad Humza Elahi, IF I went further back, Tunny would be on my list without a doubt.

  141. Ted 11:46am, 09/01/2013

    But Prov, Leonard won the unofficial round robin did he not and Duran was near the bottom. Hagler beat him and Hearns destroyed him. And his ending was no better than SRL’s on a relative basis. It’s close, very close. But I stand by the much-despised SRL—LOL

  142. Ted 11:42am, 09/01/2013

    Thanks Kid and Mike. Much appreciated.

    Yes Matt, McGraine did the most work by far. No disagreement, but he went all the way back. I just went to 1945. If you take the ones that he had from that dated, we are very close. He also selected Charles.

  143. Ted 11:39am, 09/01/2013

    Matt, I agree. Ali must be included near the top.

  144. kid vegas 10:52am, 09/01/2013

    I think that was a neat thing to include lists from other writers. Looks to me like Casey and you are pretty close.

  145. Matt Mosley 10:49am, 09/01/2013

    Djata Bumpus - I see your post as completely bogus.  :)

  146. Matt Mosley 10:45am, 09/01/2013

    ‘Your name’ was me

  147. Mike Silver 10:44am, 09/01/2013

    A very well thought out list Ted. Although I wouldn’t place him in a “top ten” of the last 50 years I think Bobo Olson is very underrated. I believe he had the style to defeat Monzon. Olson also competed in a much tougher middleweight division. But kudos to a good solid list.

  148. Your Name 10:44am, 09/01/2013

    Sorry Ted. Just realised that you mention Ali fighting the best competition of any heavy.
    I just scanned through the article at first.  :)

  149. Matt Mosley 10:40am, 09/01/2013

    Eric - I agree.

  150. Matt Mosley 10:39am, 09/01/2013

    I forgot to mention Bert sugar’s list. I like that one too.
    I have the book on his “100 Greatest Fighters”.
    I agree, Ted, that Mr McGrain’s may well have been the most thorough and well-researched list of them all.
    I think all of these lists are respectable, though, but like I said, I just don’t see how you can have a Top 10 ATG boxers list and not include Ali.
    Aside from him being one of the slickest, toughest, most naturally skilful and athletic fighters ever, he fought and beat some of the best heavyweights of all time.
    Someone may be able to correct me on this, but I would say Ali had the best pure heavyweight resume of anyone (Ezzard Charles did much of his best work at 175, after all).
    Ali fought in the best heavy era ever, and came out on top:
    Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Spinks, Williams, Patterson, etc, etc.
    And he likely lost a large part of his prime years due to his ban.
    To do what he did in those circumstances, to beat all those fellow ATG fighters, and to never get KO’d (in a division where KO’s happen regularly) tells me all I need to know.
    That Ali was one of the very best.
    Personally I would have him top 5.

  151. Mohummad Humza Elahi 10:25am, 09/01/2013

    Man, it’s hard even doing a list such as this but then trying to enter a conversation with some of the guys here on the subject and I feel way out of my depth!  Really surprised Tunney isn’t on more lists though. 

    Can’t argue against the original Sugar Ray being #1.

  152. Eric 10:13am, 09/01/2013

    Big time Marciano fan but Marciano doesn’t belong in a top 10 all-time p4p list. Marciano is an all time top 10 heavyweight IMO, but top 10 p4p, nope. Marciano is routinely ranked in the top 5 of a lot of all time heavyweight lists, and even that is overranking him.

  153. Clarence George 09:49am, 09/01/2013

    Yes, Don, that was me.

    Whenever I do such lists, I always feel like Tyrone Power in “Abandon Ship,” forced to decide, godlike, who gets a place in the lifeboat and who gets thrown to the sharks.  I’m sure Ted agonized over his rejection of such worthies as Carmen Basilio and…Rocky Marciano!  And I can think of others.  But that’s just it—there are 10, and only 10, slots available.  And I’m glad Ted didn’t resort to the sissified tie.  How can two guys be in, say, third place?  Why not three guys?  Or four?  No, one must be ruthless.  And Ted doesn’t care if Rocky’s descendants are devastated and no doubt planning to commit some mayhem on his person.  I would offer my services as a bodyguard (did a little bouncing in my salad days), but it’s just not convenient, so I won’t.

  154. Djata Bumpus 09:36am, 09/01/2013

    I see all of the lists as completely bogus!...Where are Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, and Michael Spinks, for example?...Ted, even Vinnie Curto beat a heavyweight or two, as a middleweight…and what about is a Charles?...What about Tommy Hearns?...I myself, beat a number of guys in both the amateurs and pros who were in a bigger way class…again, to me, all of the lists are completely bogus, as is the suggestion that Floyd Mayweather is such a great fighter.

  155. Eric 09:36am, 09/01/2013

    Teddy Atlas ranking Benny Leonard at #4. Please. Leonard might not even be in the top 4 lightweights of all time. I would rank Duran, Gans, and Julio Cesar Chavez all above Benny Leonard at 135lbs. Duran might not have been a better welterweight than Leonard but I do agree he deserves a higher ranking P4P lists. Good to see Bob Fitzsimmons on a couple of those lists. While we don’t have much footage to judge Fitz with, just the thought of a 167lb man blasting out 200-pounders is something we don’t see in todays world. Little 5’11” 170lb Fitzsimmons more than held his own against a huge Jim Jeffries before finally succumbing to the much larger man. Hard to imagine a prime Roy Jones getting the busting up the ‘74 version of George Foreman before being kayoed in the later rounds.

  156. Meinhard Schmidt 09:30am, 09/01/2013

    Top Ten Lists… i am not into it so much… but we need them. Boxing is nothing we can really measure, even the records oftentimes don´t mean much (reminds me of a quote i read somewhere: “give me a fighter 20-0 and i´ll show you a fighter 10-10 that beats him” (does anyone know who said it?) ). Making a good list is very complicated and an ungrateful job, however i think this is one of the best i ever saw. Thanks Ted Sares!

  157. Irish Frankie Crawford Beat Saijo aka Gimpel 09:21am, 09/01/2013

    Ted Sares-Surprised that you didn’t get to see Jofre….which reminds me…. Frankie Crawford went the distance with Eder down in Brazil in his last fight. The Charley or Charlie Mitchell on Tracy Callis’ list wouldn’t be the guy who was KO’d in short order by Sullivan and Corbett when fights seemed to go on and on and on round after round after round….would he? IMO some historians have just a tad too much history in their ATG rankings.

  158. Don from Prov 09:02am, 09/01/2013

    I love these lists—

    Great fun: I think I’d also (Clarence said this?) have Duran above Leonard.

  159. Ted 08:40am, 09/01/2013

    Thanks Mike!

    Skip, who do you have in mind? That sounded like a question to which you already know the answer.

  160. Dan Adams 08:39am, 09/01/2013

    Kudos, Ted, for another fine article, which demonstrates the wonderful thing about boxing:  so many great fighters from which to choose The Best, and so many varied, yet plausible, opinions.

  161. skip o' jack 08:29am, 09/01/2013

    Is there any of them became a 8 division champion?

  162. mike jobin 08:23am, 09/01/2013

    Great read, this is the kind of stuff all these new young fans need to read on a daily bases, Can’t argue with anyone on the list or even the order—great read as always

  163. Ted 07:57am, 09/01/2013

    Hmm, I might be wrong there. I think mine are closer to the ESPN and Ring

  164. Ted 07:46am, 09/01/2013

    Matt, I suspect McGrain did the most research while Teddy and Max kind of winged it, but both of those guys are true historians. Max knows his stuff but Teddy knows as much or more.

    Like I said, mine is closest to Mike Casey’s. He was the only other one to include Jofre—whom I have researched and studied at great length.

  165. Ted 07:43am, 09/01/2013

    Thanks Charley. Your father did some heavy work in his day. Heavy!

    Charley Norkus, “The Bayonne Bomber.” Fought them all. Even Tommy Harrison whom I’ll write about some day.

  166. cnorkusjr 07:32am, 09/01/2013

    My father told me that when he fought Ezz Charles, his punches didn’t hurt as much as some other fighters he fought, but for every punch he landed, he got hit back by twice as many and from all angles by Ezzard. Going the distance with Ezzard,was not an easy thing at Ezz’s twilight of career.
    My father said the toughest opponent he faced was Archie Moore, not from his punches, but rather his defensive arm tactics made it difficult to land head shots-and my father just wilted under the counter punching by Moore.
    Ezz is a top ten fighter though.

  167. Matt Mosley 07:28am, 09/01/2013

    I love these kind of articles, Ted.
    I think the ESPN, Ring, Kellerman, McGrain, Atlas and your own lists are the best ones.
    Any top 10 list that doesn’t include Ali I find hard to take seriously.
    Just because he was so universally popular doesn’t mean that he was overrated. He was clearly one of the best ever and anyone who doesn’t recognise that has some kind of bias against him, imo.
    Can’t say I agree with Fitzsimmons being no.1 either, despite him being a fellow Englishman, and his obviously great achievements .

  168. Ted 07:13am, 09/01/2013

    Mille Grazie, amico. Come stai? Come Davida?

  169. Giorgio 07:07am, 09/01/2013

    Ted, what a great research and a lot of details , I trust your judgement .

    I liked a lot also the attachments

    Fantastic thanks Ted


  170. Ted 06:36am, 09/01/2013

    CG, I just don’t know enough about Beau but Ike was fantastic. Different era, of course, and probably a tougher one. The thing about the much-hated SRL is that he never fought at a really low level. Each fight was a tough one. Guys like Andy Price and Dave Green were tough customers before they were sent to Hawk and Boy heaven, respectively by SRL

    Same with Bruce Finch. Ray ruined him. I saw that one. Thing about Ray was he was a very mean guy once the bell rang. Turned into a stone cold monster and great closer.

  171. Ted 06:28am, 09/01/2013

    Monte, I think Monzon only appeared on two lists here. Teddy Atlas had his and so did I. Arguello was hard to leave off but then so was Pryor.

    Panama Lewis was easy to leave off, however.

  172. Clarence George 06:17am, 09/01/2013

    Ted:  The only one at which I bristled is Sugar Ray Leonard.  Not fair to you and certainly not fair to him, because he absolutely deserves to be on the list (though I’d rank Duran higher).  It’s just that…I can’t stand him!  There, I said it.

    What do you think of Ike Williams and Beau Jack?  At least one (perhaps both) would have wound up on my own list, maybe instead of Leonard. 

    As I said before, impressive job.  One can nitpick, sure, but that’s about it.

  173. Monte Cox 06:13am, 09/01/2013

    Pretty good list. Hard to argue against the names don’t belong, rating the order is often a matter of personal taste.Robinson # 1 is of course a no brainer. I would probably agree with the list with the only caveat that I do not rate Pep so highly mostly because I do not consider him as complete a fighter as some of the other names on here. Also he lost 3 of 4 to Saddler. Im not as high on Monzon as some, now don’t get me wrong he was a great middleweight and he had an oustanding record and good quality of opposition. I rate him a notch over Hagler but I’m just not sure I prefer him over Alexis Arguello whom I consider the greatest 130 pound champion ever. It’s close. Nice list.

  174. Ted 05:59am, 09/01/2013

    Thank you Dan

  175. Dan Cuoco 05:52am, 09/01/2013

    Ted, putting together a list that contains only 10 is a tough task indeed. You did and excellent job compiling a credible top 10 and explaining how you came to your conclusions. My congratulations on a job well done.

  176. Ted 05:48am, 09/01/2013

    Workingman, correct, but IMHO Mamby became a sideshow simply out to break records. That is not real enough for me. Maybe I’m wrong on that, but a 60-year-old fighting is circus.

  177. Ted 05:46am, 09/01/2013

    Magoon, many don’t give Saddler his due. Good point

  178. Ted 05:41am, 09/01/2013

    Darrell many thanks for your comments. Lopez would have been a hard choice to beat—agreed. I could well have slipped him in at number 10, but I just could not leave the Cobra out. Also, Archie Moore was another who was hard to leave out.

  179. Ted 05:39am, 09/01/2013

    Thanks, CG. Each of your point is well taken. Lee Oma’s fight with Satterfield was a classic. He had him all but out and then got drilled by one of Bob’s crunchers and Lee bit the dust.

    I actually agree with much of what you say about Ali.

    I Forgot Kid Azteca. Good catch.

  180. Workingman 04:07am, 09/01/2013

    “If you’ll be gracious enough to permit, I must take issue with your ‘He [Roberto Duran] was also the only boxer to have fought in five different decades.’  What about one of my all-time faves, Kid Azteca, who fought from 1929 to 1961?”
    And what about Saoul Mamby, who fought from 1969 to 2008?  Mamby was 60 at the time of his last fight, which I believe makes him the oldest fighter ever to have entered the professional ring.

  181. Magoon 03:27am, 09/01/2013

    I’m glad Saddler made it on, but I would have him higher - in fourth place, with Pep in third.

  182. Clarence George 02:44am, 09/01/2013

    Excellent work, Ted.  Well researched and thought out, and compellingly argued.  Room for some disagreement and debate, of course—I’d have Joe Louis second only to Sugar Ray Robinson, for instance—but not a whole lot.

    I agree with your “Quite simply, Ali was the perfect person for his time,” but for very different reasons.  For me, it was because he represented so much that was wrong with an era that managed to be simultaneously dreary and garish.  I found him far more embarrassing than charismatic, and think he did great and lasting damage to boxing in general and the heavyweight division in particular, despite being among the sweetest of the sweet scientists.

    If you’ll be gracious enough to permit, I must take issue with your “He [Roberto Duran] was also the only boxer to have fought in five different decades.”  What about one of my all-time faves, Kid Azteca, who fought from 1929 to 1961?

    As for “mean and dirty Lee Oma…”  Ha!  Well, maybe he was, which might help explain why I’ve always liked him.  Here’s a great photo of Oma versus Ezzard Charles, who seems to have literally just gone for the fences!

  183. Darrell 02:22am, 09/01/2013

    That is a great 10, a great 10…..

    No arguments from me about who is in this list, I’ll take your word on it about Jofre (I never did pay much attention to any fights/fighters much lower than featherweight….possibly Ricardo Lopez excepted), just the order of a few.

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