Post Pacquiao Depression

By Adam Berlin on November 14, 2011
Post Pacquiao Depression
The effective aggressor is not always the guy moving forward (Chris Farina/Top Rank)

This was not the generous fighter we’d seen interviewed in the past, reveling in the moment while praising his opponent…

Pacquiao/Marquez III was a very good fight. Competitive. A showcase of styles. A display of boxing skill. These two ring veterans fought with careful intensity for twelve full rounds. But when the decision was announced, when Manny Pacquiao’s hand was raised and Juan Manuel Marquez’s mouth dropped, a very good night of boxing was tarnished along with one fighter’s legacy.

Going into last Saturday’s fight, I agreed with the odds makers (who are almost always right) and most of the experts that Manny Pacquiao would cap this trilogy with a definitive punch. I too believed Pacquiao would be too big, too strong and too fast for Juan Manuel Marquez. I expected a one-sided bout if not a blowout inside the distance. The odds makers were wrong. Most boxing experts were wrong. Team Pacquiao was certainly wrong—when Freddie Roach predicts a knockout, I listen. And I was wrong, very wrong.

I was happy to be wrong. I often root for the underdog, so I knew I’d be rooting for Juan Manuel Marquez to defeat the 10 to 1 favorite Manny Pacquiao. If nothing else, I hoped for a competitive fight that would at least approach the intensity of the trilogy’s first two installments. I was not disappointed. There are fighters and there are great fighters. When great fighters fight, it’s a different sport—there is a unique fluidity to the back and forth, a controlled violence that never turns sloppy, and a constant threat hovering over the canvas that something brutal might erupt at any moment. When elite fighters face off, we are engrossed, completely. The proverbial hooks go in because the fight demands complete attention.

Attention was not paid by two men paid to pay attention. Boxing judges need to be clued into a fight as completely as the most knowledgeable boxing fans. Judges certainly cannot be casual fans. They should be deaf to the crowd. They should be blind to the pre-fight hype. They should watch what transpires in the ring. Like art, boxing is subjective, but also like art, sometimes you just know if it’s good. I just know that Manny Pacquiao did not win Saturday’s fight. I just know that Juan Manuel Marquez did not lose.

First, let’s look at the scores. I won’t go through the fight round by round, but the rounds Marquez won he clearly won. I had him winning five rounds definitively, including the eleventh. Of the other seven rounds, Pacquiao dominated, albeit barely, three rounds. That leaves four rounds up for grabs. According to the scores on two judges’ scorecards, not one of those close rounds was given to Marquez. That seems biased at best.

Second, let’s refute what HBO’s unofficial scorer Harold Lederman kept saying throughout the fight. Lederman is big on ring generalship, as he should be. The fighter who controls the round by controlling the give and take, and controlling the ring geography, is the fighter who deserves to win the round. Repeatedly, Lederman claimed that Manny Pacquiao was the ring general. He wasn’t. He may have been moving more. He may have been bouncing up and down on spry legs. He may have been creating angles, pivoting here and there. But when Pacquiao threw punches, he was missing or catching shoulders and forearms. Meanwhile, Marquez was waiting, balanced away from harm’s way. He landed body shots from long range. He landed counter rights. And whenever Pacquiao took a break from hesitating (and let’s be honest, Pacquiao rarely committed completely in this fight, more gun-shy than he’s ever been) and let his hands go, Marquez gave as good as he got. So who is the ring general? The guy who moves just to move? Or the guy who waits, carefully, timing his opponent, catching him with counter shots? The effective aggressor is not always the guy moving forward. Marquez was the general in this fight.

What about the punch stats? Yes, Manny landed more shots, 176 to 138 to be exact. But punch stats are an overrated statistic and not an exact science. We all complain about Olympic-style scoring because so many punches are missed by the bean counters. I guarantee that Pacquiao’s 38 punch advantage included many shots that were not scoring punches. And it was obvious that Marquez landed the cleaner, harder blows. Max Kellerman often says that when scoring a round he thinks about which fighter he’d rather be. On Saturday night, I would rather have been Marquez than Pacquiao at the end of most rounds. Manny’s mouth was bleeding. His eye was cut—the cut was started from an accidental head butt then widened to gash-size by Marquez’s fists. And Manny looked dejected as he walked back to his corner round after round after round.
What about body language? Fighters are often not the best poker players when it comes to pain. How many times have we seen a boxer smile after he’s been rocked? It’s the easiest tell in the book. In this fight, Manny Pacquiao was not even smiling. His eyes were distracted. He couldn’t quite believe that he, the pound-for-pound king, the overwhelming favorite, the invincible Pac Man, was getting beaten. Sitting on his stool, Pacquiao looked like the loser. Bloody. Distracted. Tired. And it was clear that his corner was equally worried. Freddie Roach, usually a voice of reassurance and insightful strategy, was strangely quiet between rounds. For this fight, Pacquiao’s childhood friend Buboy Fernandez was yelling instructions, fearful that his best buddy was in serious trouble. Gone was the synergy of team Pacquiao. Gone was the supreme confidence. So gone that there was no plan B, no sage advice offered to the fighter who has won so easily over recent years—a defeated-looking Pacquiao sat in a defeated-acting corner, practically sulking. Lie as they might after the fight, Team Pacquiao knew the truth during those minutes of rest. And when the camera panned to Pacquiao’s wife, Jinkee, the tears in her eyes came from pain, not joy.

The post-fight comments were just as telling—this was not the cocky Manny Pacquiao claiming he’d put on a good show for fans and country. This was not the generous fighter we’d seen interviewed in the past, reveling in the moment while praising his opponent. This was a beaten fighter justifying his win. Pacquiao’s voice lacked conviction when he said he’d won more rounds than Marquez. And Pacquiao’s eyes, looking everywhere but at the camera (a liar’s tell if ever there were one), belied what he knew in his heart—he’d been lucky to get the judges’ nod. 

Polls don’t tell everything, and the majority is not always right, but the outrage voiced when the decision was announced at the MGM Grand carried over into the post-fight surveys. A clear majority of fans, fans who cared enough about the fight to dial in, believe Marquez won the fight. In this case, public opinion got it right. I won’t go as far as to say this was an outrageous decision, a decision worthy of investigation, but it was a bad decision. I’ll use my own fight night’s experience as a gauge. I watched this pay-per-view bout with about thirty people. Most were casual fight fans who were just as happy to watch the MMA joke between Junior Dos Santos and Cain Velasquez playing on the other TV screen. (Talk about a juxtaposition—anyone who wants to pit boxing against MMA need only compare the badly thrown punch that knocked out Velasquez with the skillful beauty of Marquez’s conterpunching. Case closed!)  But in the crowd I counted five knowledgeable fight fans. The casual observers, the ones who mistook busy energy for mastery, thought Pacquiao had the edge. The five guys who knew the fights—and this is not subjective but objective; a real fight fan can name the names, recognize the subtleties, and become furious when injustice happens in the ring—all gave the fight to Juan Manuel Marquez.

If you’re a true fight fan, ask yourself honestly who you’d rather have been at the end of Saturday night’s fight. A dazed and confused and bloody Pacquiao who couldn’t hold the camera’s eye? Or Juan Manuel Marquez, sitting in his dressing room with a Sombrero covering his crotch, a visual Fuck-you to the judges, confidently looking into the lens and proclaiming that he’d won the fight, that the fans knew he’d won the fight, that maybe he’d retire because the decision rendered had been so unjust? I know who I’d rather be. 

Pacquiao/Marquez III, and it will go down as Pacquiao/Marquez III and not Marquez/Pacquiao III, was a very good fight. This trilogy will become one of boxing’s historic match-ups. But sadly, when these fighters are looked at, and they will be looked at separately because that’s what we do, we put individuals up on pedestals, not pairs, Manny Pacquiao will be raised high. After all, against the great Juan Manuel Marquez, he has a draw and two wins on his ledger. On Marquez’s ledger there is a draw and two losses. And the ledger is immortal—that’s the beauty of books but also the danger of books. Two ringside judges committed a sin on Saturday night. Not a blatant sin, but a sin nonetheless.

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  1. DVL 11:28pm, 06/03/2012

    Agree with you Ely, totally agree.

  2. Ely de Guzman 06:41pm, 11/23/2011

    Where are when you say that most of Pacquiao’s shot was block and missed?  Are you in front of the ring?  And where is Ledermen during the fight? Watching on tv?  You saw how Pacquiao miss his punch, what about Marquez? Haven’t you saw majority of his punch touch only from the gloves of Pacquiao.  You said that the eyes of Pacquiao worsen after an accidental headbutt due to the punch of Marquez?  For your information after the headbutt during round 10, Ariza was able to stop the bleeding from the rest of the fight.  Now I will ask you did you observe the face of Marquez after fight? his swollen right eye and plenty of swollen part of his face?  The problem with you, you accusing HBO for being biased against Marquez, did you yourself if your fair?  Be honest to yourself.  Whenever Marquez release his punch mexicans are very noisy as if all of his shots touch directly to Pacquiao but if you will watch carefully you will find out it all touch from the gloves. Marquez didn’t dominate Pacquiao for you and all the mexican plus all detractors to shout for a robbery.  And I advice you if you don’t believe from all the judges in boxing please convince the boxing world that whenever there is a fight let the audience, you and other medias to judge for the fight.

  3. JC45 07:13pm, 11/22/2011

    Cant agree about Cottos so called stellar resume either mate . He won a bogus vacant WBO 140 lb title from Randall Bailey who had been easily beaten by Ishe Smith two fights before facing Cotto. He then stopped DeMarcus Corley , a nice win but Corley had lost to Floyd two fights ago. Urkel , Judah and Mosely were all well past their primes.  Then we have Miguel being gifted a title at 154 against Yuri Foreman .  Worse yet was the defence against Ricardo Mayorga. I’d make an argument that Cotto has never beaten a prime good fighter. Margarito was in his prime and he beat Cotto. Its only compared to cherry pickers like Pac and May that Cottos resume looks good. I’d give old Hopkins the nod visa vis resumes of current fighters . Especially considering his age.Unlike Manny , Cotto and Floyd , Hopkins continually faced fighters with good form going in. Post age 40 Hopkins fought the unbeaten Jermain Taylor twice , then went up in weight to fight Tarver as a 3 to one underdog. Tarver had just destroyed Roy Jones.Then Hops fights Winky Wright who had won his last 13 fights , all at world title level. Hops then fights two unbeaten well respected world champions in Calzaghe and Pavlik. Add Pascal twice and Chad Dawson to the list and you have a post 40 year old fighter with a far superior record- resume than the overhyped Mayweather and Pacquiao. Cheers mate.

  4. JC45 06:58pm, 11/22/2011

    Have to agree with Don here Raxy.  Oscar was WELL past his best when he fought Mayweather. He was 34 years old and nearly ten years past his absolute best. Oscar was in many ways like an hispanic B grade Thomas Hearns . Great jab , great speed , very tall at the weight and excellent power but not a technical or clever fighter. I’d rate Oscars peak as the Chavez rematch at 140 pounds. Not at 154 aged 34 . On a different tangent , I was watching some youtube of Jose Napoles the other day. What an underrated fighter he has become. This is why I’m nearly boxing these days. We have two cherry picking phoney so called greats in Floyd and Manny getting compared to fighters like Robinson , Leonard ,  Henry Armstrong. Complete rubbish. Floyd has NEVER faced what I’d call a gun prime fighter. Castillo was very good but hardly a gun or great. Like I commented to you before Raxy , name one prime tall fluid fast technical boxer Floyd has faced. There arent any. Sugar Ray Leonard beat a very good 154 pound champ in Ayub Kalule back in the day and I remember he barely got any credit at all. While the Flomos rave on about Floyd beating Ortiz, Judah and the 34 year old Oscar who Hopkins had kayoed a few fights before. Rant over but Im finding it very hard to even give a shit about boxing these days. Its been a terrible few months in the ” sport”. I was watching Monzon v Napoles with a mate yesterday and we both thought the ancient Cuban lightweight - welterweight did very well early considering the size and age difference. Compare Napoles guts to the modern cherry pickers. Watch Napoles v Curtis Cokes ,  Rax . Mantequilla had one of the smoothest , best educated left hands I’ve had the pleasure of watching. Why is Floyd a better fighter than him? Modern ” boxing” is more about maximising profits for businessmen- fighters than it is about the best facing the best. I thought it was bad enough that they could never organize Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield and Tyson to fight when they were near there primes but the whole Manny v Floyd no fight is even worse.

  5. Don From Prov 12:43pm, 11/19/2011

    SOMEONE steered Leonard’s career well, and that—the way he came up—is the point.  I’ll agree to disagree on how much of Oscar was left by the time he fought Jr.  But we will agree that Oscar never had the greatest of endurance and that Cotto seems like he’ll face anyone anytime.  Later.

  6. raxman 05:36pm, 11/18/2011

    don from prov - have you read dundee’s autobiography? he had next to no say in sugar ray leonard - he was a gun for hire who was respected so little they even screwed him out of his original contract - which was something huge like 25% (i can’t remember) Ray’s handlers were so desperate to get ali’s trainer seeing they jumped at it. dundee basically was involved in the last half of rays camp - the first half ray would get fit and then dundee would come in and go through strategy - for instance dundee identified hagler as a right handed south paw so they trained to move away from the right not the left - when hagler opened the fight orthodox it had no affect because they were already right hand defensively minded.  anyway the dundee analogy not the best. and i can’t agree re oscar being shot - that was a split decision loss, oscar looked good in that fight - and i was cheering him on all the way. but he gassed - no endurance that kid! billionaire kid i should say . the guy who has the best resume for fighting all style is cotto! he’s a true old style fighter in more ways than one. carl froch too. the tourney has helped but really - pascal-taylor-dirrell-kessler-abraham-johnson and now ward - who has a better last 6 fights than him?

  7. Don From Prov 10:52am, 11/17/2011

    Here is a thought about Manny that Mike Casey, Tumbo, and Thresher (if he is indeed Mr. Sares) has made me think about.  It has to do with fighting a number of well-rounded, tough fighters on a regular basis (the old school days), the “genius” of Roach in guiding MP’s fights, and how good/great Manny really is.  In the day, Manny might not have had any choice but to fight any number of tough, resilient, and well-schooled punchers/counter-punchers/movers, and in a little less of “the day”—had he been guided by Angelo Dundee—Dundee might have recognized some of his charge’s weaknesses and would have matched Manny with far more than “walk forward” fighters.  Look at Dundee’s guidance of Leonard: He fought, at various levels of their threat threshold, a number of fighters who presented him with a variety of challenges.  Dundee might have had Manny face lesser, but dangerous versions of Marquez and some movers, etc.  Maybe someone will show that such fighters aren’t out there for the matching and say that’s the problem, but I think Marquez fought the tougher fights at lightweight than Manny, who had more capacity for size it would seem, was fighting at higher weights (and Manny could have lingered at lightweight—perhaps he didn’t want to share a division with JMM).  Maybe feeding a fighter a steady diet of fighters who don’t stylistically challenge him will look good on the record but stunt him as a fighter—and bite him in the ass when he does fall into the ring with someone that his team hopes is shot, but turns out to still have the capacity to tie him in knots to a large degree.  And THAT leads me to the idea of cherry-picking, which is what I hold against both of our current “great” fighters.  Anyway, one last thing: Mr. Rax, yes I did try to clear up my quickly typed and stupid error: It was Manny who had before him a shot and weight drained Oscar; Oscar was only shot when he fought Floyd (and at least it was at weight).

  8. Don From Prov 10:30am, 11/17/2011

    Rax: Okay, a little convoluted—but the main idea with Floyd is that he doesn’t fight enough, but the other side of that is fighters with 80 fights or so are often suffering brain trauma, yes?  I see what you’re saying, but don’t know how accurate or inaccurate (in other words, admitting that I don’t know) you are.  In other words, is there much a much higher number of fighters with a lot of fights who are suffering brain trauma or do thirty or forty fights seems plenty to cause such damage if it’s going to happen?  As far as who Floyd has fought or not, I will disagree on his WW career and say once again, you can never know what problems a younger Margarito or Cotto might have presented him because Floyd didn’t fight them.  I agree that Floyd has looked good post-break and it seems pretty widely known that he has hand problems.  THRESHER (whose sarcastic tone matched my inadvertently sarcastic one): Gee, I guess maybe fight the best when they are at their best is one formula for earning the mantle of greatness.  TUMBO: It is ALWAYS a pleasure to here your unique and intelligent voice, and I couldn’t agree more about clarity in insanity.

  9. raxman 04:31am, 11/17/2011

    te tumbo - that’s why i keep telling people to watch the uk broadcast - you get a much better translation - nacho said all the stuff in your post but the general message was be intelligent - be intelligent not you’ve won so stay away like a marathon runner - explode on this guy,  attack the body - be intelligent! the worse part about this criticism is even if he did say it there is no evidence that jmm listened as he did exactly the same in round 12 as he did in round 1 thru 11 - he moved his feet to throw off pac range, he countered, and he wasn’t countering he was beating pac to the punch

  10. te tumbo 10:16pm, 11/16/2011

    Peace to DON from PROV. been a long spell with only occassional reports and glimpses of your existence(?!). Btw, there is clarity in insanity. i’ve had Manny* pegged for a while now and i’m loving how he’s now wedged between Eloco Juan on one side and “Money-May” on the other (lol). anyway, hope that everything is well with you and come over and join us some time at the old dive . . . Peace to you carnal.

  11. te tumbo 10:08pm, 11/16/2011

    too much is being made of Nacho’s presumed mistake of telling Marquez’ he was ahead on the scorecards. what apparently didn’t get conveyed because of HBO’s notoriously piss-poor translators Beristain also ORDERED Marquez to “Explode on this guy!” and another cornerman following-up with “when he moves, Attack his body! Don’t let him get away. Attack his body!” Beristain NEVER guaranteed that they were winning the bout. he only said so as encouragement for Marquez to keep doing what he was doing, which was outBoxing, outPunching, and outClassing Pacquiao* for the majority of rounds. Nacho’s credibility as a trainer is beyond reproach particularly after what he prepared Marquez to deliver.

  12. Yonnongal 05:16pm, 11/16/2011

    For those who chit chat and claim that Marquez won that 3rd fight, bring all your evidence to the( NASC ) and file your pretest there. That is the proper way to do it, for those with right mind and not acting and behaving like dogs barking anywhere just to get audience.

  13. raxman 03:01pm, 11/16/2011

    don from prov - my main point is that floyd should maybe be criticised for not fighting enough not for who he does or doesnt fight because there is nothing wrong with the opponents he has fought. and that given what we know happened to the fighters of yesteryear that had 80-90 fights can we even criticise him or any fighter for only fighting once or twice a year, and if we accept that then we need to accept that in fighting once or twice a year he can only fight so many opponents.

    my point re cotto and margarito was in response to regular comments about those two fighters - i stand by my belief that neither would trouble floyd even at their best - i wish he had fought them but i dont think - particalarly margarito for which he is most often accused of ducking - would’ve been that entertaining. margarito was hit at will for 7 rounds by cotto who boxed on the outside like he never had - then he either gassed or was victim of foul play - either way floyd wouldnt have gassed and he wouldnt have been hit enough for loaded gloves to be an issue - plus uncle rog probably would’ve spotted that shit just like brother naazim

    as for my opinon re fighter A beat fighter B etc - i would never say anything along the lines of floyd beat jmm and he showed up manny so floyd would be manny. the first thing i learnt was styles makes fights - duran beat leonard/ leonard beat hearns/ hearns beat duran!

    but its obvious that if pac is troubled by an 8 out 10 counter puncher then he would really struggle against a bigger, stronger, faster 10/10 counter puncher - people cite style make fights to defend pac against floyd post this last jmm fight but its the fact of styles that tells us floyd would have his measure, not what floyd did to jmm which is irrelevant.

    and as for oscar being weight drained - how the hell does that make sense? floyd fought him at 154 which was his weight. do you mean he was weight drained when he got beat up by manny? coz thats the understatement of the year - the reason freddie jumped at that fight - as he has said - is that from training oscar he knew he couldnt make 147 and when he saw the rehydration drip mark on his arm he knew that manny would kill him. floyd had no such advantage and again the floyd v oscar fight was actually close.

    and one more thing - that i’ve not raised before - i think floyd has come back from the post hatton break a much better fighter which makes me think he had injuries and that is a factor to why he took the break

  14. the thresher 12:41pm, 11/16/2011

    “Floyd looks like a very very fine fighter to me but I don’t know that he’ll ever earn the mantle of greatness.”

    Gee Don, what do you have to do to earn it then?

  15. the thresher 12:39pm, 11/16/2011

    The way JMM bulked up for this fight clearly fooled Raoch and Manny. Man, he looked massive across the chest like Vinng Paz did. Angel “Memo” Heredia. May have been the difference and when a guy like “Memo” is the difference, I take pause.

  16. "Old Yank" Schneider 11:46am, 11/16/2011

    Floyd Mayweather, Jr was born in a gym.  Gloves, ropes, sweat and disciplined training from a family born with gloves on their fists are all the natural, organic world of Floyd.  The manner that he SCHOOLED both Marquez and Mosley speaks volumes about just how skilled at his craft Mayweather is.  Mayweather does not win on a scorecard – he DOMINATES a scorecard (with very few exceptions).  His “cherry picking” and personality might tarnish his luster, but what he does in the ring has the distinct look and feel of greatness to me.

  17. Don from Prov 09:15am, 11/16/2011

    And yes, it was Manny who Oscar was both past it and weight drained against.  Floyd just had past-it going for him.  Anyway, I have somewhat similar problems with both fighters.  Later, and again, sorry if the tone sounded shitty: I wrote quickly and in a sloppy manner.

  18. Don from Prov 09:06am, 11/16/2011

    pursued the best fights and yet was so far superior to everyone—

    Probably other typos but am off to the gym.

  19. Don From Prov 09:04am, 11/16/2011

    But you know what Rax: You can’t say definitively what Floyd would have done against those fighters when they were at their best because he chose not to fight them then, and that—fighting the best when they are at their best (if one has the opportunity, and Jr. did)—is how a legacy is built.  I’m also not sure why Jr. would be punch-drunk if he had pursued the best fights was so far superior to everyone, but how would you measure a fighter: By what he says he would do against someone?  Would you opine that because Floyd (or anyone) beat fighter A who beat fighter B then he would prevail over fighter B as well?  Or does one ignore history (stupid Ted Sares) and objectivity and say that since a fighter is the best YOU have seen in the last ten years then he’s great AND full vetted?  I apologize if I sound sarcastic but I was with you about how often Floyd fights and whether or not he faced all comers (and the same could be said about a number of fighters) and then you seemed to veer off and I am truly not sure (maybe I’m not too bright) of what your point was.  Anyway, Floyd looks like a very very fine fighter to me but I don’t know that he’ll ever earn the mantle of greatness.  My opinion anyway.
    And Oscar was past-it and weight drained, as well as not quite fitting the category….. Oh well.  Note that I’m not a huge fan of Manny or Floyd: I like them both and enjoy watching both fight.

  20. raxman 08:39am, 11/16/2011

    jc 45 - mate i think you’re probably half right re floyd - he has certainly let us down by not facing all comers - i truly believe that circa 07-08 he could’ve easily handled cotto and margarito but for floyd it seems a case of i could so why should I. those people who think floyd was scared of those guys are letting their dislike of his personality cloud their judgement. but this is the great tragedy of floyd because if he just fought all comers those he has fought wouldn’t be judge so harshly - for instance there is nothing wrong with him moving to up to 154 and having his first super fight vs oscar - he didn’t ask for a catch weight and that was a close fight. then there was hatton who although a weight lower, as floyd moved up to challenge oscar surely hatton has the right to do same - also no one had a problem with this fight until floyd picked him apart, exposing him for all future fighters - then you have the break - and coming back and facing jmm - yes he’s small but after nearly 2 years out of the ring floyd has a right to a warm up fight - when floyd says he can’t win he’s right because no one would’ve cut him slack for fighting a paulie or alfredo gomez type to remove ring rust - jmm was small but he did call floyd out and was a top ten p4p and has a fan base that warrants a big $ fight. after jmm there is mosley who floyd was scared of and ortiz who was a young left handed beast and more people than was logical thought would be too strong for floyd.
    the real floyd issue then isn’t who he fights its that he doesn’t fight enough -as ted says we need to measure him by old school fight values. but should we really? ted writes all these articles about his now punch drunk heroes - does floyd really need to have the sort of career that will leave him like that later for us to rate him now? should he have squeezed margarito between oscar and hatton - and how would that fight have looked? tony coming fwd all night eating pot shots and never being able to properly touch floyd with his slo motion punches - it’d be boring because floyd wouldn’t gas like cotto. and speaking of cotto maybe floyd could’ve fought him after hatton - that would’ve been chico #2 at some point in the 9th or 10th floyd would be consistently landing so many punches on the gassed out cotto that his corner would throw in the towel. only the paul williams fight at 47 would’ve been interesting - but only to see how floyd would go against such a tall, high punch out put fighter - and lets face it around that time floyd wasn’t the only guy not fighting p-dub - although now that we see williams refuses to lift his right hand and is a sucker for a left hook do we really think floyd wouldn’t have exposed that just like he did with hatton?
    don’t take this the wrong way coz pre break i hated floyd as much as the next guy but after watching all his fights again without the emotion of hating him i;m now a fan and i look beyond the irritating facade of money may and instead see it for what it is - a marketing ploy that yes makes floyd alot of money by his being the heel but also keeps our sport in media and a hell of alot more relevant than it would be without him.
    and as for a tall fluid boxer with a good jab - oscar certainly fits 2/3 of the those requirements and i guess you could even argue for his fluidity although i’m pretty sure you’re thinking of that looser afro-american style fighter that has a sort of rhythm to his punchers yeah?

  21. Don from Prov 05:15am, 11/16/2011

    P.S.—Good day to you Mr. JC, and yes, isn’t it splendid the times we are living in?  I just read so in the paper as well.  Also, “hey” to my old friend Tumbo.  Good to hear your voice (in spite of the slightly insane—if clever—* you put after any mention of Manny: said with a smile).

  22. Don from Prov 05:12am, 11/16/2011

    Thresher: I would say that Manny did not beat any major prime fighters: Barrera and Morales were not in their primes, and still, Morales administered one beating to Manny.  I know that the road to greatness is littered with the bodies of past-it or just past-it big names, but there generally need to be some prime big names in there as well.  As Manny has settled at WW, please tell me who are the prime, big-time fighters he’s faced?  If the same can be asked of Marquez, a case might be made that he’s at least faced a wider variety of tougher competition as he’s moved up.  Of course, sometimes the competition is just not there and we still, judging by what our eyes “tell us” decide that someone is a great fighter.  If that’s your criteria with Manny, fine.  But again, if competition = greatness for you… .

  23. ronnie margas 09:42pm, 11/15/2011

    36 rounds of boxing only Juan Manuel Marquez kissed the floor 4 times while seeing stars around his head and on the last 12 rounds keep on running and waiting and stepping to the foot of Pacquiao so that by any chance he could Knock out Pacquiao but it never happened.

  24. ronnie margas 09:35pm, 11/15/2011

    That’s true marquez never run but he never Knock Out Pacquiao and that’s the only FACT….

  25. ronnie margas 09:31pm, 11/15/2011

    Pacquiao has so many priorities and his bout against Marquez is just his past time and less priority. What happened last sunday is that pacquiao is just playing while earning millions of dollars.  The FACT remains that Marquez did not KNOCK Pacquiao out that was his only chance while Pacquiao was very busy in so many things.

  26. MIKEY 06:10pm, 11/15/2011

    Marquez never ran. He opened Pacquiao’s face. What do you mean he has to take it. Marquez took it. Pacman lost lost lost lost lost lost lost lost lost lost lost lost lost and they cheated.

  27. te tumbo 06:08pm, 11/15/2011

    one thing is for sure, the intrigue of a Mayweather v. Pacquiao* matchup has been severely compromised. only the most oblivious Pacquiao* fanboys still believe that would be a competitive matchup. Sir Crampy should’ve snatched that payday up when he had the chance. his options are now limited to primary rivals who’ve got his number.

  28. john 05:57pm, 11/15/2011


  29. JC45 05:36pm, 11/15/2011

    GDay all, I had Marquez winning by 7 rounds to 4 with 1 even. Saying this I still thought Marquez took his foot off the gas in the championship rounds. Something you should NEVER do , especially when you are fighting a money making machine like Pac. I will say that JMM showed up Mannys flaws , he is stylistic kryptonite for the Filipino . Manny has probaby the least versatile , worst lead hand of nearly any so called great fighter I’ve ever seen. A very average jab , a mediocre right hook and no right uppercut. Even his power left hand is thrown the same way everytime he throws it. He doesnt utilize the looping overhand left or the left uppercut with any regularity. Marquez is a great counterpuncher , especially if you throw more than 2 punches at a time at him. Both Mayweather and Chris John were smart enough boxers to rarely throw a combo with more than two punches against Marquez, limiting his countering opportunities. I rate Manny’s resume as better than Floyd’s but I would argue he’s never convincingly beaten a prime gun fighter. He hasnt convincingly beaten Marquez in three attempts. Rax wrote some spot on stuff about Manny’s technical weaknesses on another thread here which I wont go into but it was very pertinent stuff. I can rattle off at least a dozen welterweights from the past that I could see beating Pac easily. Floyd ditto. I reckon a prime Don Curry , Vernon Forrest or Trinidad would squash Manny. Let alone a prime SRR , SLR or Thomas Hearns. Manny is a very exciting attacking fighter but he cant think on his feet and is technically so so at best. He has been feasting on fighters who have been smashed in there previous fight and or are utterly technically unequipped to handle his southpaw style ( Cotto and Hatton had no right hand ) . Floyd on the other hand CAN fight but he dodges competition and is even better than Roach and Manny at picking fighters who have a style that meshes well with his. Floyd has never fought a tall fluid , boxer with a great jab.  Can Floyd change his style and come forward against that style ala Hagler v Hearns or Leonard v Hearns . I have my doubts. Rant over , cheers all and I’m with you Don. EVERYTHING is ” great ” nowadays . The media shills and the spruikers insist they are so its gotta be true .

  30. te tumbo 05:15pm, 11/15/2011

    it’s not called “running away” when you’ve already outscored your opponent by 150 punches. it’s called coasting and yet another example of how even DLH couldn’t get a fair shake in Vegas, i.e., THAT was a Robbery.

  31. the thresher 04:34pm, 11/15/2011

    Tumbo, you man made a bad strategic mistake. Deal with it. He lost. Move on before you tear yourself apart. You don’t win belts by not closing the show in an aggresive manner. I thought your knew that when Oscar ran away from Tito.

  32. te tumbo 04:11pm, 11/15/2011

    if “90%” of the paying public was “hispanic” and the decision still went to Pacquiao*, there must really be a lot of hate out there for “hispanics” or—if you simply dispense with the code words—Mexicans. still don’t know what that has to do with the glaringly-flawed scorecards? 7/12 for Pacquiao*? not a chance among a fair, honest, and untainted judging panel. anybody care to make that argument on behalf of this judging panel?

  33. the thresher 03:23pm, 11/15/2011

    Don From Prov, greatness is measured by who you beat. In the case of M,anny and JMM, they have more than lived up to that measure. In the case of Floyd, though I think he is great, he has yet to earn that accolade in the same manner as Manny and JMM. You don’t become great by fighting when it suits you to fight. You become great by fighting.

    That is an Old School perspective, by the way.

  34. the thresher 01:41pm, 11/15/2011

    I thought the fight was in Mexico, at least you could have fooled me.  90% of the people there were hispanic. You can move the next fight to Texas all you want but your not going to have it anymore pro Hispanic than it was the other night.

    Nacho was telling JMM that he was winning the fight from the 9th round on telling him that all he had to do was not get knocked down and the fight was his. Are you kidding me? All i heard for the month leading up to the fight was how JMM and Nacho felt that they were robbed in the 2 previous fights. If thats the case then they have no one to blame but themselves, why in the world would you leave this fight up to the judges. It seemed to me that JMM kind of faded or held back the last two rounds but then obviously Marquez was just trying to squeeze out a decision, in which case he and his trainer failed miserably.

  35. "Old Yank" Schneider 01:06pm, 11/15/2011

    Irish—Fine observation!

  36. te tumbo 01:00pm, 11/15/2011

    Btw, after what happened last night, we can all forget about a Pacquiao* v. Mayweather bout ever happening. Floyd the Great would only improve on every aspect of Marquez’s fight-plan and undoubtedly earn the TKO win. i always imagined this scenario but Marquez’s latest exposure of Pacquiao* must have Mayweather chuckling at how easily he’d handle Manny*, i.e., with extreme cruelty and prejudice against the media darling that has robbed true ring-warriors of their stature and prestige with promotional clout and leverage if not outright corruption.

  37. te tumbo 12:55pm, 11/15/2011

    FInally. a ballsy, accurate, and comprehensive post-fight write-up of this travesty. whether it be ring-generalship or overall display of superior skills, Marquez wins hands-down. i was also incredulous at Lederman’s bizarre commentary, which seemed to emanate from the parallel universe of Opposhite. of course, Lederman is notoriously off-base with his scorecards and analysis but it was absolutely bizarre how he kept praising Manny* for everything that Marquez was accomplishing during the fight. bottomline, Pacquiao’s* body language following the final bell was the strongest indicator of who won according to Manny’s* mental scorecard. accordingly, he wasted no time with celebration but instead immediately kneeled to pray Very Hard for the miracle aka “robbery”.

  38. Irish Frankie Crawford Beat Saijo 12:48pm, 11/15/2011

    The difference here was JMM’s punch resistance and we can thank Heredia for that. When Manny literally runs in with his straight left and it lands solidly , it has in previous fights, put JMM on his heels where he couldn’t counter at will as he did in this fight or put him on the seat of his trunks if only for a flash. One can say that MP didn’t land enough of these punches, but they did in fact land throughout the bout and JMM ate them up and used them to time Manny. A flash knockdown or two as in the past two fights and it still would have been close but not so controversial. Heredia stated that he only had nine weeks with JMM….taking into consideration the recent not very impressive entries on JMM’s resume, it was more than enough time.

  39. nd 12:25pm, 11/15/2011

    “You don’t win a championship, you take it.”

    Marquez didn’t take it…

  40. "Old Yank" Schneider 12:08pm, 11/15/2011

    Don—There is much to be said about your sentiments.  It is a very difficult task to measure greatness in boxing today to greatness in boxing of yesteryear.  Much is said about how trained the fighters of yesteryear were in the fundamental aspects that is argued as lacking today.  Well I’m not entirely convinced.  With some fighters of yesteryear fighting every-other week, it seems to me that the training was of the on-the-job variety with a lot less gym time then today’s fighters often have.  It seems to me that a ton of “training” was done from the corner during a live bout in yesteryear whereas today a more deliberate approach is often taken.  When we inflate in our minds that all was better in days of old, it necessitates paying some higher homage to the trainers of old as well.  And it all becomes a circle of supporting some prejudice in many ways – none of it capable of being resolved.  In my view there are no hard and fast answers to be had here.  In my view Marquez simply had Pacquiao’s number and apparently always did.  As a poster below pointed out, it had a Ali/Fraiser feel to it—especially to Ali/Fraiser III.  The Ali camp thought Fraiser had lost more than a step.  On fight night, lost step or not, Fraiser proved that he still had Ali’s number.  Such things simply seem to happen in boxing from time to time—I’ve got nothin’ concrete to explain the how and why fors!  I strongly suspect that there is a huge story behind the mental aspect of the sport and an Ahab and the White Whale obsession-of-will that can take a man’s behavior beyond all rational explanation.

  41. Don From Prov 10:14am, 11/15/2011

    To watch two very good fighters like Manny and Marquez and then read the Mike Casey article on Jack Dempsey and pay attention to the discussion about how much our current fighters do or do not know about the sport is illuminating.  Careful selection of opponents and a limited number of top tier fighters who are truly schooled may lead to as much talk about “greatness” as does any true reality concerning how complete a fighter is.  If a fighter avoids, and it can be done is this era—to a large degree at least—a number of the type of opponents (or if said opponents just aren’t out there) who give him trouble and/or show him things he hasn’t seen before, I’d guess that he is limited in his ability to become great. That’s one thing I’d take away from the first two fights between Manny/Marquez (haven’t seen this one yet, but it sounds as if Marquez was the fighter who adjusted) and the careers of Manny and Floyd Jr. in general—very fine fighters who aspire to greatness but may not have earned actual greatness.  Just a thought—of topic, but I am circling realities of what seems to have taken place the other night, yes?  I hope so.

  42. Joe 09:08am, 11/15/2011

    I hear ya.  I just believe styles make fights and for whatever reason the Manny vs. Juan matchup ends up being a close battle.  (Foreman destroyed Frazier, Ali KO’d Foreman, Ali had to battle for his life against Smoke thrice…..)

  43. "Old Yank" Schneider 08:11am, 11/15/2011

    Joe—Oops, I failed to mention that Pacquiao had also added De La Hoya to his resume over the 3 1/2 year gap since his last meeting with Marquez.  Pacquiao had been 6 times in a bout with a limit of 140 or above—successful in all 6.  Over the same 3 1/2 year period, Marquez had two bouts over the 135 limit and failed miserably in one attempt (the catchweight bout against Mayweather – 144 pounds in the contract with Mayweather at 146 with a weight penalty), and had a quick 1st round KO over the less than spectacular Likar Ramos at the 140 pound limit (Ramos had been fighting at 130).  A TON of PAPER existed to suggest Pacquiao would have a much easier night with Marquez than what we saw.  And that is what makes boxing so exciting—anything can and does happen.

  44. Ken 08:04am, 11/15/2011

    Manny won that fight. Marquez needed to take the belt by doing something to Manny. that didn’t happen. He fought a fight of survival only. Come on boxing fans, It’s always been the way to take that belt from the champ. Marquez did nothing to Manny to warrent that. Marquez is a great fighter but but not quite in the same class as Manny. Manny took the fight to Marquez and risked getting knocked out. Marquez wasn’t willing to take the same chance.

  45. "Old Yank" Schneider 07:57am, 11/15/2011

    Joe—with all due respect, please consider that following Mayweather’s SCHOOLING of Marquez and following the Diaz rematch where the light-fisted Juan was able to go 12 with Marquez and following how easily the slowish Katsidis was able to land early on Marquez, it was reasonable to see Marquez as slipping a notch from his earlier bouts with Pacquiao.  Add to this how difficult it seemed for Marquez to handle any weight above 140 when in against Mayweather (looking SLOW by a mile compared to his speed at 135), and we’ve got reason to believe that a 144 pound catchweight bout against Pacquiao might be a bridge too far.  The prior bouts seemed like a century ago when we examine all the history that took place over the past 3 1/3 years.  What did Marquez show us over the past 3 ½ years to suggest he was able to carrying the weight and what did he show us to suggest that he’d stepped up his game?  By contrast, what had Pacquiao done over the past 3 ½ years to show he could carry the weight and what did he show us about an ability to step up his game?  Marquez added Cassamayor, Diaz (twice), a loss to Mayweather, Katsidis and Ramos to his resume over the 3 1/3 year gap.  Pacquiao added David Diaz, Hatton, Cotto, Margarito and Mosley to his resume.  Again, with all due respect, there was plenty of reason to see Pacquiao having an easy night with Marquez.  The surprise was that the bout did not unfold in the ring like it did on paper.

  46. Paulie D' The Punch Professor 07:00am, 11/15/2011

    When a fight is close and rounds are close a Judge gives the nod to who he wants .. Always been that way will always be that way .. Most always is this fact, that the Judge wants the same Boxer the Businessman who promoted the show WANTS !    I read both your articles concerning this fight and they are excellent. I did think this fight would be as close as the others Pac~Mar 1 and 2
    Paulie D’ Team Benitez

  47. Joe 06:33am, 11/15/2011

    I think we’ve all watched enough matches to know it could have went either way; at least that’s what I thought.  And I thought Manny fought a conservative fight to make himself look a bit more vulnerable to the moneymaker - and he accomplished his mission.  Anyone who thought Manny was simply going to walk this man down (KOby6) didn’t watch the first two fights.

  48. Shane Holmes 04:53am, 11/15/2011

    Haters will be haters. The stats dont lie. Pacman was the busier more aggressive fighter, always making marquez move backwards. Pacman threw more punches and landed more punches. Marquez was the most accurate puncher. In the end Pacman won! The judges said so, Lederman said so, and so did half the fans.Like i said, haters will be haters. Next up - Floyd!

  49. AKT 04:03am, 11/15/2011

    Thanks Adam.

    It can’t possibly have been said any better.

    oh hey wait a sec .. i’ll have a go.

    That decision - what an Outrage!

  50. mike 02:09am, 11/15/2011

    Those who respect the warrior in Marquez should respect the fact that he laid back during key moments he should have turned it up. He never once had pacquiao in trouble. His battered counterpunched face told the story. Close fight, but not a victory for Marquez.

  51. paul 01:29am, 11/15/2011

    I myself was disappointed by the result of the fight. I thought the judges unfairly scored the fight, a fight I thought fair and square nonetheless. But that was until I saw the video footage of the match where the “would have been winner Marquez” stepping on the foot of Pacquiao not only a couple of times but five times!

    There is also a big question about the yellow liquid that Marquez drank during the fight.

    Fair and square fight? I doubt.

    Manny, winning? Yes, no doubt.

  52. Osama bin Laiden 12:15am, 11/15/2011

    Hey Adam Berlin, are you a mexican by any chance?

  53. marlon glaura 11:38pm, 11/14/2011

    hey you guys,,,, just review round after round on how marquez intentionally or maybe u decide step on the foot of Manny. round 6 1min 18sec., round 7 1min 49sec.,round 8 1min 27sec., round 12 1min 25 sec. and in final 52 seconds. what the heck can you explain that for…..

  54. jorge al 11:09pm, 11/14/2011

    yeah i agree w/ ronnie margas.whatever the decision is, its cannot be changed like the one admitted by one judge.when manny losed to erik morales the ist time they met,he did not complained.whatever speculations,doubts,or complaints you have you cannot overrule the judges’ decision.its final . here’s a somewhat secret discovery.just take a look at a video with marquez stepping on manny’s this legal? is this not deceit ?

  55. ronnie margas 09:57pm, 11/14/2011

    At the post fight conference, Marquez asked this question;
    “What do I have to do for judges to win a fight?”

    1. You have to knock out Manny the way you had knocked out Likar Ramos, Michael Katsidis, Juan Diaz (2nd Fight), Joel Casamayor, Jimrex Jaca and the rest.

    2. You have to dominate Manny the way you had dominated Juan Diaz (1st fight), Rocky Juarez, M. A. Barrera and the rest
    or the way Manny dominated Shane Mosley, Antonio Margarito, Joshua Clottey and Oscar de la Hoya
    or the way Mayweather dominated you.

    3. As long as you can not accomplish the above conditions, you can never win against Manny even you will face him a hundred times. When you fight Manny, don’t just wait, be an aggressor also. Fight the way how you had won your fights. why you are so cautious? Why you can’t go for a kill the way you had done to those who were knocked out by you?

    4. In all close boxing match, either fighter and their camps will claim victory but the Judges have the final say simply because THIS IS BOXING not a popularity contest where the opinion of the audience counts.

    5. In the first place, you don’t need to ask this question because you have been winning fights also.

  56. John 08:04pm, 11/14/2011

    Foot Trick or Foot Cheating by Marquez, watch video link below:

  57. "Old Yank" Schneider 07:31pm, 11/14/2011

    I will add that this is why Froch will lose to Ward.  Froch will show up to win the bout and Ward will show up to win ONE round—the round he’s fighting.

  58. "Old Yank" Schneider 07:28pm, 11/14/2011

    Adam—Nice piece.  Please consider…  I agree that the rounds Marquez won were easier to score than the one’s I saw Manny winning.  But I saw Manny worthy of 10 points in 7 rounds (6 rounds he won—four easy to score and two by a whisker—and one even) and 9 points in the remaining 5, for a score of 115.  I saw Marquez worthy of 10 points in 6 rounds (the 5 he clearly won—no whiskers needed—and one round even), and 9 points for 6 rounds, for a total of 114 points.  Just because Marquez won his rounds more decisively than Pacquiao won his, it does not mean that Manny should be robbed of any rounds that he won by a whisker!  Occasionally we see a fighter squeak an edge out on 7 rounds by a whisker in each, while his opponent wins 5 rounds by a huge margin that is just shy of allowing any round to be a 10-8 round.  The winner comes out looking like he went through the meat grinder and the loser cries robbery.  The 10-Point Must System is what it is!

  59. the thresher 06:59pm, 11/14/2011

    Would you have been ok with a draw? Just asking.

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